Largest Possible WWII
- Thread starter Rognvald
- Start date
Erm, no. This is a cliche that makes absolutely no sense and never will. Mexico at that time was never so much as considering such a thing and they seemed pretty eager OTL to join the Allies, sending pilots to fight the Japanese. They weren't a bunch of idiots sitting around a table moping over the loss of Texas and Arizona planning vengeance a hundred years too late against a country several more times powerful than them.
The Axis (Germany, Italy, and Japan) were united in that all three wanted to overturn the existing international system and replace it with an entirely new world order. In particular, they (along with the Soviet Union) hated the liberal democracies, whose form or government and economy was seen as decadent and unfair.
To expand the war, you need to expand the Axis which means more countries who are expansionist and desire to end the existing international order.
This is impossible with the world as it was by 1939. We need a POD much earlier than that, but not so early that it butterflies away the end of WWI and other events that caused WWII to happen IOTL.
1) If you want a battle in North America, you basically need Mexico to join the Axis. To get that kind of Mexico, you need a very different Mexico than the one that existed in IOTL. So you need someone different to win the Mexican Civil War. Perhaps the war was so different that Victoriano Huerta became dictator of Mexico. He adopted many of the anti-clericalist measures the PRI later did and had his own cristero war, which he also won. The ending result was an (Italian style) Fascist government that was an early supporter of Mussolini. Later, Mexico received much investment and trade deals with Italy and Germany.
2) As Nazi Germany expanded and prepared for war, Mexico was considered a natural ally along with Italy. Much mutual cooperation between the three happens. Mexico provides oil to Germany in exchange for much technical help and machine tools to expand Mexican industry. Hitler is not too impressed with the half-Indian Mexicans, but he appreciates their geopolitical benefit.
3) As Integralism gains support in Brazil, fascist Mexico helps make Fascism part of normal Latin American culture. Because of that, either Antonio Vargas does not turn against the Integralists and becomes full blown fascist, or domestic changes allows Plinio Salgado to become President in 1938 and turns the country into a dictatorship.
4) Mexico and Brazil join the Anti-Comintern Pact at various times. Perhaps Mexico does in 1937 when Italy does it, and Brazil in 1939. This links them with Germany and Japan.
5) Now comes the hard part - why do Mexico and Brazil declare war on the Allies? Perhaps they do so in June 1940 when it looks like Britain and France will make peace quick (they make the same mistake as Italy). They won't have the same territorial aggrandizement as Italy, but perhaps they think this will give them a better say in world politics with a victorious Germany. A possible collective counter balance to a weakened US might be a good reason. They soon regret their actions.
6) Neither country is able to contribute to the Axis war effort. Both remain too poor and too far away. Royal Navy has other priorities than enforcing an effective blockade against them. However, Germany finds them useful as countries where its U-Boats can find safe harbor. In addition, some Luftwaffe units also transfer (via French airbases in the Western Africa) to defend the ports and support operations.
7) The presence of Axis Brazil and Mexico puts pressure on other Latin countries to be more friendly to the Axis. None join at this point, but the US faces a lot of obstacles to keep other Latin American countries inline.
8) Japan attacks Pearl Harbor in 1941 and wins a resounding victory. Germany declares war a few days later.
9) The US discusses options with its ally Britain. Neither Mexico nor Brazil has declared war on the US at this point. Yet the Mexican dictatorship is extremely unpopular. Many Mexican and Brazilian dissidents live in the US. The US and UK decide that Axis allied nations cannot be tolerated in the Western hemisphere. Dissidents in both countries say a popular democratic government could be installed in both countries.
10) In Spring 1942 the Allies declare war on Mexico and Brazil after diplomatic negotiations fail to make them withdraw from the war and take anti-German/Japanese stances.
11) General Patton is given command of the invasion of Mexico. His forces meet little resistance although a few pitched battles take place. By Summer 1942, US troops enter Mexico City and the Huertista government surrenders. The US establishes a democratic civilian government and eliminates many of the anti-clerical laws. While some US troops remain to keep the peace, they are withdrawn as soon as possible for service elsewhere. The US works out some problems with its doctrine with the learning experience of the Mexico campaign.
12) The invasion of Brazil has the purpose of eliminating the U-Boat threat from the area and preventing it from threatening the US build up to invade Africa and Europe. Negotiations with other South American countries will get them to join the war on the Allied side in exchange for resolution of some disputes in their favor. In Fall 1942, General Eisenhower leads the invasion of Brazil as a combined US/UK naval task force eliminates the Brazilian navy. Forces from Uruguay and Argentina quickly join them. The US publicly offers lenient peace terms promising the restoration of Brazilian democracy. After a few pitched battles, Brazil agrees to a negotiated surrender.
13) The US lands in French Northwest Africa in Winter 1943, incorporating many lessons learned in the previous Mexican/Brazilian campaigns.
I doubt such a timeline could develop in reality, but its at least plausible if you don't look at it too closely.
To expand the war, you need to expand the Axis which means more countries who are expansionist and desire to end the existing international order.
This is impossible with the world as it was by 1939. We need a POD much earlier than that, but not so early that it butterflies away the end of WWI and other events that caused WWII to happen IOTL.
1) If you want a battle in North America, you basically need Mexico to join the Axis. To get that kind of Mexico, you need a very different Mexico than the one that existed in IOTL. So you need someone different to win the Mexican Civil War. Perhaps the war was so different that Victoriano Huerta became dictator of Mexico. He adopted many of the anti-clericalist measures the PRI later did and had his own cristero war, which he also won. The ending result was an (Italian style) Fascist government that was an early supporter of Mussolini. Later, Mexico received much investment and trade deals with Italy and Germany.
2) As Nazi Germany expanded and prepared for war, Mexico was considered a natural ally along with Italy. Much mutual cooperation between the three happens. Mexico provides oil to Germany in exchange for much technical help and machine tools to expand Mexican industry. Hitler is not too impressed with the half-Indian Mexicans, but he appreciates their geopolitical benefit.
3) As Integralism gains support in Brazil, fascist Mexico helps make Fascism part of normal Latin American culture. Because of that, either Antonio Vargas does not turn against the Integralists and becomes full blown fascist, or domestic changes allows Plinio Salgado to become President in 1938 and turns the country into a dictatorship.
4) Mexico and Brazil join the Anti-Comintern Pact at various times. Perhaps Mexico does in 1937 when Italy does it, and Brazil in 1939. This links them with Germany and Japan.
5) Now comes the hard part - why do Mexico and Brazil declare war on the Allies? Perhaps they do so in June 1940 when it looks like Britain and France will make peace quick (they make the same mistake as Italy). They won't have the same territorial aggrandizement as Italy, but perhaps they think this will give them a better say in world politics with a victorious Germany. A possible collective counter balance to a weakened US might be a good reason. They soon regret their actions.
6) Neither country is able to contribute to the Axis war effort. Both remain too poor and too far away. Royal Navy has other priorities than enforcing an effective blockade against them. However, Germany finds them useful as countries where its U-Boats can find safe harbor. In addition, some Luftwaffe units also transfer (via French airbases in the Western Africa) to defend the ports and support operations.
7) The presence of Axis Brazil and Mexico puts pressure on other Latin countries to be more friendly to the Axis. None join at this point, but the US faces a lot of obstacles to keep other Latin American countries inline.
8) Japan attacks Pearl Harbor in 1941 and wins a resounding victory. Germany declares war a few days later.
9) The US discusses options with its ally Britain. Neither Mexico nor Brazil has declared war on the US at this point. Yet the Mexican dictatorship is extremely unpopular. Many Mexican and Brazilian dissidents live in the US. The US and UK decide that Axis allied nations cannot be tolerated in the Western hemisphere. Dissidents in both countries say a popular democratic government could be installed in both countries.
10) In Spring 1942 the Allies declare war on Mexico and Brazil after diplomatic negotiations fail to make them withdraw from the war and take anti-German/Japanese stances.
11) General Patton is given command of the invasion of Mexico. His forces meet little resistance although a few pitched battles take place. By Summer 1942, US troops enter Mexico City and the Huertista government surrenders. The US establishes a democratic civilian government and eliminates many of the anti-clerical laws. While some US troops remain to keep the peace, they are withdrawn as soon as possible for service elsewhere. The US works out some problems with its doctrine with the learning experience of the Mexico campaign.
12) The invasion of Brazil has the purpose of eliminating the U-Boat threat from the area and preventing it from threatening the US build up to invade Africa and Europe. Negotiations with other South American countries will get them to join the war on the Allied side in exchange for resolution of some disputes in their favor. In Fall 1942, General Eisenhower leads the invasion of Brazil as a combined US/UK naval task force eliminates the Brazilian navy. Forces from Uruguay and Argentina quickly join them. The US publicly offers lenient peace terms promising the restoration of Brazilian democracy. After a few pitched battles, Brazil agrees to a negotiated surrender.
13) The US lands in French Northwest Africa in Winter 1943, incorporating many lessons learned in the previous Mexican/Brazilian campaigns.
I doubt such a timeline could develop in reality, but its at least plausible if you don't look at it too closely.
Actually, it sounds plausible to me... granted central/south American history is NOT my strong suit...
Still, you've now roped in most of the Americas, which doesn't leave a lot of large neutrals.
Now if someone can rope in Spain, Sweden, Turkey, and Saudi Arabia...
1. Why would Sweden join? There's not much they could get from joining.
2. Turkey would want some sort of Caucasus Mt. Range barrier, possibly balkanizing the northern sections of the Caucasus while taking the rest for themselves.
3. Saudi Arabia would be better off as a neutral, supplying oil to both sides. Iraq revolted against the Brits at one point, and if Turkey joins, the Axis have a somewhat secure oil supply, at least until the British or Soviets get the Persians to come in from the east.
4. Spain is still recovering from their civil war, and as such, have no reason to enter the war. They could provide military support as OTL however.
The problem is actually getting them to fight. While having Mexico, Brazil, and Argentina go fascist can be plausible, actually getting at least Mexico to take on the USA of all people slides straight into ASB. Being fascist doesn't necessarily mean actually joining the Axis. Look at Spain and Portugal, much closer to Germany and more able to receive support, and yet when the war came they pretty much said, "Good luck Nazis, you're on your own now".
HeavyWeaponsGuy
Banned
Mexico joining the Axis is hilariously ASB. Igniting a regional bushwar in Central and South America is possible with the tensions of the time to destroy the last real venue of the world that was completely and totally unscathed by the war.
Sweden could join in a worse Winter War where the Allies turn the diplomatic and material support of the Finns into an all-out war with the Soviet Union. Sweden's role in a war will be defensive though, they're unlikely to really get involved in any significant way against anyone unless being attacked themselves.
Spain... can join for all its worth, they're recovering from a major civil war, their military isn't that good to begin with, and they know full well that they're in a position to face the full born wrath of the Allies if Germany falters. Salazar in Portugal will likely not go along with it... and might even join the Allies if he fears his neutral regime will be an unpopular target later on.
The Turks have no real reason to get involved, choosing to fight Italy or to fight the USSR isn't a fun choice to make. Unless someone makes that choice for them by attacking first, it probably won't happen. Stalin is too intelligent to jump the Turks, thus it falls on Hitler or Benny to start something.
At the point of Turkey entering the war we'll probably see a Middle Eastern portion of the Second World War. The only possible way to get Ibn Saud involved (and he's going to trend towards the Allies) is for him to perceive a genuine threat to the nation of Saudi Arabia... which with Nazis and Italians running around in the area, someone sooner or later will realize that the Arabian Peninsula makes a nice base for attacking British Mesopotamia. At that point a crappy, poorly-equipped Arab army makes up for every disadvantage with the harsh environment and clever tactics of their homeland.
Axis South Africa could stir up some interesting trouble in British Rhodesia but that would require the fascists getting a lot of support that they did not have historically.
There can be a major battle of sorts in North America... but it would require normally intelligent nations to launch insanely stupid attacks (i.e. Japanese invasion of Hawaii or San Diego or some dumb shit like that). Chances are it probably won't happen, there is no guarantee that a fascist or fascist-aligned Mexico is going to suddenly forget its position vis-a-vis the United States, one would be truly hard-pressed to find a Mexican leader of any stripe who genuinely believed that Mexico could go to war with the United States and do anything more than fail miserably.
Some cursory Japanese raid on Panama for the purpose of throwing off the canal is the most I can see going down in regards to Central America.
Sweden could join in a worse Winter War where the Allies turn the diplomatic and material support of the Finns into an all-out war with the Soviet Union. Sweden's role in a war will be defensive though, they're unlikely to really get involved in any significant way against anyone unless being attacked themselves.
Spain... can join for all its worth, they're recovering from a major civil war, their military isn't that good to begin with, and they know full well that they're in a position to face the full born wrath of the Allies if Germany falters. Salazar in Portugal will likely not go along with it... and might even join the Allies if he fears his neutral regime will be an unpopular target later on.
The Turks have no real reason to get involved, choosing to fight Italy or to fight the USSR isn't a fun choice to make. Unless someone makes that choice for them by attacking first, it probably won't happen. Stalin is too intelligent to jump the Turks, thus it falls on Hitler or Benny to start something.
At the point of Turkey entering the war we'll probably see a Middle Eastern portion of the Second World War. The only possible way to get Ibn Saud involved (and he's going to trend towards the Allies) is for him to perceive a genuine threat to the nation of Saudi Arabia... which with Nazis and Italians running around in the area, someone sooner or later will realize that the Arabian Peninsula makes a nice base for attacking British Mesopotamia. At that point a crappy, poorly-equipped Arab army makes up for every disadvantage with the harsh environment and clever tactics of their homeland.
Axis South Africa could stir up some interesting trouble in British Rhodesia but that would require the fascists getting a lot of support that they did not have historically.
There can be a major battle of sorts in North America... but it would require normally intelligent nations to launch insanely stupid attacks (i.e. Japanese invasion of Hawaii or San Diego or some dumb shit like that). Chances are it probably won't happen, there is no guarantee that a fascist or fascist-aligned Mexico is going to suddenly forget its position vis-a-vis the United States, one would be truly hard-pressed to find a Mexican leader of any stripe who genuinely believed that Mexico could go to war with the United States and do anything more than fail miserably.
Some cursory Japanese raid on Panama for the purpose of throwing off the canal is the most I can see going down in regards to Central America.