Challenge: Phoenician/Punic/Greek colonization of the Americas

Make the Phoenicians, Puns (Carthagians) or Greeks colonize the Caribbean, and possibly Mexico and Florida as well.
Shouldn't be very difficult.
Make the colonization happen before the 3rd century BC.
You can even make the Romans conquer the colonies later.

The Phoenicians and Greeks usually built their ships way too lightly for the open ocean, though I believe the Phoenicians built some more heavily for the Atlantic coasts, especially around Gades. The medieval and modern shipbuilders built their ships much more heavily, starting with the keel and ribs.

They were also coast-huggers.

What about the Ancient Celts? Or maybe the Japanese, or the Indians (of India) ? Or any other Ancient Civilization?

Sang said:

Make the Phoenicians, Puns (Carthagians) or Greeks colonize the Caribbean, and possibly Mexico and Florida as well.
Shouldn't be very difficult.
Make the colonization happen before the 3rd century BC.
You can even make the Romans conquer the colonies later.

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It has been speculated on these boards that the Romans may have had sufficient shipbuilding knowledge to manage a transatlantic crossing, but that they never did it because they never had a reason to try. If there were stories of Greek or Carthaginian colonies in the Americas, they might be induced to try to conquer them, however, the questions that have to be answered are what would compell the Greeks or the Carthaginians to want to settle the New World, and how would they even learn about the New World in the first place?

> however, the questions that have to be answered are what would compell the Greeks or the Carthaginians to want to settle the New World, and how would they even learn about the New World in the first place ?

1. Some native american shipwrecked on coast of Portugal and they carry gold jewellery

2. there are sporadic contact between Canary Island and Caribbean

> What about the Ancient Celts? Or maybe the Japanese, or the Indians (of India) ? Or any other Ancient Civilization?

Polynesian will be better bet. they did reach Easter Island.


Related talk :

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=110579&highlight=roman+america

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=17262&highlight=Rome+America

Pretty much ASB. You might get one ship across the Atlantic accidentally, but even then the odds aren't very high of the crew surviving, let alone maintaining their original culture instead of being absorbed into the local one. And there's simply no way you get full-scale colonization of the Americas by the Greeks et al.

To do so you'd have to make such massive changes with PODs very far back that by the time you were ready to launch your colonizing fleets the civilization in question couldn't be refereed to as Greek or Punic anymore, and the question becomes moot.

You might as well ask this question in the ASB forum as 'WI the Americas colonized in 300 BC'

OP, it's easy to imagine a random visitation to the Americas by an off course Phoenician vessel, having originally intended to trade Cornish Tin let's say, and getting caught up in Lord-knows what conditions further west, around southern Ireland and dangerous Atlantic conditions. It's plausible - just.

But I cannot stretch truth to imagine why any ancient maritime power would ever think it would be prudent to send a deliberate colony out there.

Look at the troubles they had in the med, think about Greece's problems trying to colonize Sicily for example.

Besides, the stray vessel would almost certainly be lost - a one way deal with no reports ever reaching home.

The only way it would be barely possible would be with the following scenario.

A Carthaginian ship, enroute to the Canary Islands is blown off course and discovers the Azores. Because of their climate a small settlement is founded. Gradually over the years, as more ships sail to the Azores, another ship is blown westwards to the coast of Brazil.

That ship, laden with goods for the Azores trades with the local indians, say on Marajo Island. By luck or good fortune it makes it back to the Azores, the Canaries or North Africa with rich goods it traded from the Marajo Indians.

At that point, small groups of very adventurous traders would start crossing the Atlantic to trade for the riches of the Americas. Over time, trading settlements would be created. It's not really colonizing the new world, but then, for the Carthaginians, the Punic, or the Greeks its just too far away for any serious colonization. It might however, provide the bitter pill that would innoculate the natives against European diseases.

Whether or not the Romans would visit these trading posts is debatable, however, even if they did, they also would have no reason to attempt to colonize the area.

There really isn't much chance of it happening, but it is just possible.

In other words its theoretically possible, but extremely unlikely.

pretty much so.

Mike Stearns said:

In other words its theoretically possible, but extremely unlikely.

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Theoretically possible, but extremely unlikely =/= ASB
Am I right?
If not, then I'm sorry...
But if I am, then play on.

This "colonization" would innoculate the natives against European diseases. Thus, maybe the Phoenicians could give the Natives their writing system.
For some reason, the Caribbean is still stuck in my head... Lots of island = ripe for colonization by maritime civilizations (such as the Phoenicians and Greeks).
After the Phoenicians, the Greeks could follow. However, the Greeks won't attack anyone - they just immigrate to already existent Phoenician settlements, possibly diluting the Phoenician/Punic character and creating a mixed culture.
Then, the Romans finally set sail, to annex those colonies. After the fall of the Roman Empire, the colonies are free again, but what would the future hold for them?

Sang said:

Theoretically possible, but extremely unlikely =/= ASB
Am I right?
If not, then I'm sorry...
But if I am, then play on.

Click to expand...

"Theoretically possible but extremely unlikely to the point that it would be like the guy who won the lottery six times in a row but lost the ticket each time."

This "colonization" would innoculate the natives against European diseases. Thus, maybe the Phoenicians could give the Natives their writing system.
For some reason, the Caribbean is still stuck in my head... Lots of island = ripe for colonization by maritime civilizations (such as the Phoenicians and Greeks).
After the Phoenicians, the Greeks could follow. However, the Greeks won't attack anyone - they just immigrate to already existent Phoenician settlements, possibly diluting the Phoenician/Punic character and creating a mixed culture.
Then, the Romans finally set sail, to annex those colonies. After the fall of the Roman Empire, the colonies are free again, but what would the future hold for them?

Click to expand...

First, and this is important:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=180065

"Colonizing America is hard."

Let's say the ships exist. Let's say someone is interested to go that far west, or otherwise ends up there without their first and dominant drive being "get home, forget this disaster ever happened in some good booze, and go back to normal life".

Then what? Well, then you need to read the thread, since its important stuff for a TL like this.

Well, the Old Worldians (let's call them that ) would spread Old World diseases to the New World, but then the Old Worldian populations in the New World would gradually lose their resistance to said diseases. It's why during the American Revolution, smallpox was such a big factor- the Americans had less resistance to it.

BelisariusCaeser said:

Well, the Old Worldians (let's call them that ) would spread Old World diseases to the New World, but then the Old Worldian populations in the New World would gradually lose their resistance to said diseases. It's why during the American Revolution, smallpox was such a big factor- the Americans had less resistance to it.

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I'm not sure - armies and diseases like smallpox tended to be screwed.

What about a group of Carthginians who flee the Roman conquest estabishing a colony along the atlantic cost of africa say about where Senegal is today. Its a much shorter hop across to South Amercia. If you had some ships blown say to Brazil. Think of the trade opertunites and best of all no Romans

altwere said:

What about a group of Carthginians who flee the Roman conquest estabishing a colony along the atlantic cost of africa say about where Senegal is today. Its a much shorter hop across to South Amercia. If you had some ships blown say to Brazil. Think of the trade opertunites and best of all no Romans

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Indeed, good idea. But what about the Native Senegalese?

What do you thin about Roman East Africa?

The Arab Sea was known then,and there was always land to re-stock supplies on the shore.