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  #21  
Old September 29th, 2011, 05:15 PM
Shaby Shaby is offline
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Originally Posted by dgharis View Post
Actually Bock is commander of Heeresgruppe B; his fellow commanders are von Rundstedt (Heeresgruppe A) and von Leeb (Heeresgruppe C), and should also be present at the meeting if you want all the senior commanders there.
Well if you read the part with OKH meeting there is certain von Loeb. Should be von Leeb of course. I haven't recheck proper assignments for FM's. I was a bit lazy to do it twice. Should have done it, but didn't. My bad.

Last edited by Shaby; September 29th, 2011 at 05:28 PM..
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Old September 30th, 2011, 08:58 AM
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Chapter 2 of the timeline

0200 Rome, Il Duce Palace

Ciano and Badoglio were summoned from their houses by Il Duce and having arrived in front of Palace, were ushered instantly into the grand room to find only Mussolini sitting there. He greeted them and offered them to sit down. "Adolf Hitler is dead!" said Benito, matter of factly. "The fool got himself killed in one of those foolish anniversary celebration of his failed emulation of our glorious March on Rome." Ciano was the first to respond "Well that simplifies things for us, doesn't it?" "Si, conte. We now have no obligation toward Nazi Germany. We are free to form our own policy." answered Mussolini. "Badoglio, how soon can you prepare and mobilize the Army?" "For what, sir?" "Unforeseen circumstences! What sort of question is that?"

November 9th, 1939 Berlin


0645h "German citizens, heroic soldiers of the Wehrmacht, sailors of Kriegsmarine, pilots of the Luftwaffe! We interupt our regular transmission for an grave announcement. Beloved Fuehrer, saviour of our Vaterland, was killed by the hand of terrorists, while adressing his most faithful followers in Munich. Every son and daughter of Greater German Reich will weep for the greatest son of Vaterland. Today, every window will fly black flag. For next seven days Mourning will be pronounced throughout the Reich and her allies. All public events, except memorial services to the great Fuehrer, will be canceled. However, even in this sad occasion we must not forget our DUTY! Our obligation! Our debt to the man who delivered us from the dual grips of Bolshevism and Jewry. Every man, woman and young will do their duty. As per wishes of our departed Fuehrer, General Fieldmarshal of the Luftwaffe, Herman Goering, will take over Fuehrer position. Let us all hail this worthy successor, bestowed on us by the will of one and only Fuehrer Adolf Hitler." Mozarts Requiem is played after this announcement.

0800 London, Downing street 10

9 people sat in their chairs, with sound of paper shuffling the only sound disturbing the silence of the room. "Gentlemen" started sir Neville Chamberlain "I believe you are all familiar with the subject of this meeting. As has been reported by our sources in Germany, during the previous night Chancellor of Germany, Adolf Hitler has been killed. We have gathered here as War Cabinet to discuss further steps in prosecution of the ongoing war against Germany. I have been in contact with mr. Daladier, who is having similar meeting with his cabinet as we speak. He assured me of his adamant position to prosecute the war further, until our commonly agreed objectives have been met. In order to enable us to have more accurate picture, I invite sir Leslie to present current state of military preparation of our country." "Thank you mr. Prime Minister. Gentlemen, I must confess that we cannot be satisfied with the current state of our forces. Since we came to the decision to deploy our forces in France in 1938, progress has been painfully slow. In absence of conscription, we were able to form only sceleton of formation. On 3rd September, we were able to deploy a total of 160000 troops. We expect to reach targeted 316000 by the spring of 1940. Our Expeditionary forces in France consist of 4 divisions right now, while four are forming up at home, and will be deployed as they become available. We have no problems in supply and entire army is motorised. French have mobilized over five million people. Their army is deployed on the entire Franco-German frontier, behind thier formidable Maginot line. Mr. Daladier has assured me that German Army cannot penetrate this line without devastating casualties. Germans have deployed around 50 divisions on the border front. Without reinforcements they cannot effectively defend their entire front, though they can offer some resistance. Unfortunately, French mobilisation process was too slow to allow offensive before adverse weather set in. Current military thinking of French GQ is too recieve German attack, blunt it and then start counter-offensive operations. Our home forces consist mostly of regular divisions forming up for deployment in France, reserve forces with 183000 various personell and around 300000 newly formed Territorials. We have only one Armoured division at home, the 1st Armored. They are still getting familiar with their vehicles so we expect it to be ready mid-April. I will now let sir Kingsley present state of air forces to you." "Thank you sir Leslie. Our air forces are the most modern part of our defense. We have almost finished modernization and most RAF fighter squadrons received our new Hurricanes and Spitfire aircrafts. Our..." At that moment, Winston Churchill, already visibly exasperated said "That is all very well and fine, but I think we must make a policy decision here. Mr. Prime Minister, my oppinion is that death of Hitler doesn't change much in overall situation. He was only an exponent of agressive German ambitions since previous war." "Winston, please can you for once refrain from interrupting our meetings!" "I am sorry sir Hoare" said Prime Minister "but sir Winston is right. We must prosecute this war until Europe can be free of incessant German agression. This government must insist that Germany release Poland from her grip and allow Chezch people the right of self-determination. This government will stand by international law and our commitments. We undertook on march 1939 to defend independence of certain countries in Europe and will not retreat from fight until this independence is assured, or this Island is conquered." Everybody in the room felt proud for being British in this moment. It felt the finest hour of Britain. "Very well, gentlemen." exclaimed sir Hoare "Let's have a vote of the cabinet on the "Proclamation of willingness of the His Majesty's Government to prosecute current war until it concludes under terms as presented in the Ultimatum dated 3rd September" to be presented to the House of Commons. In favor 9, against 0." "Thank you gentlemen. Leslie, Halifax, Churchill and Kingsley, please stay." said Chamberlain.

0800 Elysee Palace

Daladier spoke first "Messieurs, as you are no doubt aware, there was a dramatic turn of events considering our current war against Germany. The Head of state of Germany has been killed in Munich. Our sources from Deuxieme Bureau indicate he died as a result of an explosion. So far, no one has been arrested or claimed responsibility for this act. As we all know he had many enemies, but the manner of death leads to conclusion of massive conspiracy within ranks of German military or inner party. My oppinion is that this in no way affects our prosecution of war. Intention of our government is clear. Liberate Poland and once and for all end continuos threat German aggression represents for our people. I have consulted Maurice Gamelin, who assures me that we can defeat Germans in spring. It is impossible to attack now and we must wait for campaign season, which is just as well. Our forces need time to prepare" "But Messieur Daladier, if Germany gets a new government, we surely can come to some kind of agreement, no?" asked former foreign minister Bonnet. Due to his opposition to war, Daladier decided to take over his ministry, naming him Minister of Education, a harmless enough posting. Bonnet continued "I believe that Messieur Goering himself is open for an agreement with us and English, provided we leave their conquests intact. I know for sure that Goering has contacted Englishman Wilson in order to avert war. What if he succeeds and we are left alone? Have we not seen the English done this to us once already? After all, what have they provided to the fight? Mere few divisions!" After this outburst, Daladier was unsure how to proceed. At that moment, Georg Mendel, minister of colonies replied "French honor demands that we proceed this war. We must continue no matter what happens. No agreement with Germany is possible if we have to fear their mighty armies sweeping over our borders, and making peace under the terms they propose is no way to secure us." Most of the council agreed with Mandel loudly. Daladier called them to attention "Messieurs, please, please! I conclude this session with this: "French government will remain in state of war with Germany until our demands are met. Should German government at any time decide to accept this terms, government of France will accept them as base of truce, later terms to be determined as part of comprehensive peace agreement between us, our allies and Germany."

0900 Zossen
Halder entered his office. He found Brauchitsch and Canaris in the room. In front of the doors two men from Brandenburg regiment took care that they are not disturbed. Halder started "We gathered here due to the divine intervention. We have been rid of the Fahneneid to the madman. We are now free to act against the extremists. However, nothing we do must endanger Vaterland. We must not allow them to brand us traitors, who betrayed Vaterland due to their blind ambition. Herr Canaris, please continue!" "Goering has already contacted me. He asked for information on willingness of Western powers to conclude negotiated peace. My personal estimate of chances for treaty is slim, without serious concessions that nobody in Germany is willing to accept. I am talking of giving up Poland, Czezch and possibly even Austria." At these words, Halder and Brauchitsch exchanged glances, which Wilhelm did not notice "We must act now and take over government if we have any hope of peace treaty." Halder retorted "To accept what? Give up Poland, for which my troops shed their blood? Even if I personally could get over that, no officer in the army will accept it. We would be hung from the poles by our own soldiers." Brauchitsch joined in "No, no, no! I could never order an Army to abandon the field of battle which they just conquered. We must be safe from the Bolsheviks and to be safe we must hold Poland!". Canaris frowned at this. "Franz, Walther you cannot be serious?" asked Canaris "We have this opportunity alone. Goering has the ear of almost every industrialist in Germany. If he manages to consolidate his power, I doubt that we will have this opportunity again. Besides, my Fremde Heere West estimates that French could throw up to 100 divisions on us. Our sources claim French have over 3000 tanks, some of them better than what we have. Although the England has not been able to provide serious forces yet, our intelligence suggests they have few divisions of their Expeditionary Army fortifying at Belgian frontier. Military situation is grave, you know it better than me." Few minutes of silence passed, as both officers pondered knowns and unknowns. Halder was first to voice his oppinion "Herr Wilhelm, you are right, French are much more powerful than Wehrmacht at the moment. However, campagn season is at least five months away. Currently Wehrmacht has around 70 divisions of all categories mobilized and ready, while some 40 are forming up. We managed to beat Poland at about 1:1 ratio. Before our triumph over Poles I wasn't very confident in our own armed forces, but now I believe that we can hold our own in combat. This time we will do it right, there will be no Army in Prussia, and we will hit France with all our might!". Canaris said "Oh my God, people, what do you want? To lose another war, again?" "No need to be dramatic Wilhelm. As soon as our positions in France are secured we will ask and get a peace treaty. I am sure English are as afraid of Bolshevik as they are of us. They will not be as eager to continue the war once the France is off the table. In the meantime we must take over this country, as the extreme elements of Nazis will taint our cause." concluded Brauchitsch. "Ok. I shall contact the others and revive the pre-Munich plan!" added Halder.

Last edited by Shaby; October 3rd, 2011 at 12:40 PM.. Reason: fact checking and correction
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  #23  
Old September 30th, 2011, 12:20 PM
Shaby Shaby is offline
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0908 Prinz-Albrecht-Strasse, Gestapo HQ

Heinrich Mueller was going through the reports of various field offices of Gestapo with accustomed routine. He was sipping his regular morning coffee, cigarette in his hand. What happened the previous night was drawing attention of entire formidable RSHA apparatus. On the streets of Munich officers of various service were practically running into each other. Mueller was expecting his senior staff memebers to come any minute now. The meeting was scheduled rapidly but efficiently. Mueller was worried that he could not identify any organization or group capable of an act of terrorism that happened in Munich. He was sure that anyone that competent would be unable to escape attention of his agents. He was mildly afraid of reaction of his superior officer Reinhard Heydrich to his lack of information. At that moment, a phone rang. Person on the other side of the line identified himself immediately as head of Munich office. "Herr Generalleutnant, I have to report that my office has apparently apprehended the person responsible for setting the bomb." Mueller promptly asked "Are you sure? Who is he?" The voice on the other side responded "We never heard of him before. He is a nobody. Our agent on the border crossing took him off the train before he escaped to Switzerland. He was in our custody since last night." Mueller retorted in ominously low voice "Listen to me herr Oberst... I have serious business at hands and I do not have time for some junior inspector delusions of grandeur. That cannot be the man!" Next remark of the Oberst changed the mind of Gestapo chief "He had in his possession postcards from the beerhall. THE BEERHALL herr General! We located some of the personel, and a few of them recognized this man, Elser, as regular customer in previous months. Also he has bruised knees, as if he was crawling on them for a long time! And finaly, he confessed just a few moments ago, which is why I called you." At this, Mueller exploded "You idiot, why didn't you say so at once. HERR OBERST, YOU AND YOUR SENIOR OFFICERS WILL PERSONALLY ACCOMPANY THIS MAN TO BERLIN. Use the airplane and get the prisoner here right now! Or I will have you patrolling some Polish village for the rest of your life!"

0930 few floors up in SS HQ

"Well Heinrich, what have you got?" asked Heydrich.

"Herr Gruppenfuehrer, Gestapo agents in Munich identified and apprehended one Johann Georg Elser last night in Konstanz. He was attempting to get across the border with false papers. After investigation and interogation of the suspect, he confessed to have planted the bomb." Mueller reported instantly.

"Sehr gut herr Mueller. Any further progress on identifying his co-conspirators yet?"

"No, herr Gruppenfuehrer. They are bringing him to Berlin now. I have no doubt he will sing in no time once I hand him over to Hans."

"Please notify Hans to keep him alive."

"Of course Herr Gruppenfuehrer."

"You can go to your office now! I have urgent business with Reichsfuehrer! Dismissed!"

"Jawohl, herr Gruppenfuehrer!".

After Mueller left the office, Heydrich got up and through a side door on his office entered the room that was occupied by Himmler. "Herr Reichsfuehrer" he started.

"Come in Reinhard." answered Himmler. Himmler continued instantly "I was very lucky that the Venlo thing Walther cooked up had me stay here yesterday, instead of going to that stupid celebration. I could have been there with der Fuehrer. Where is Walther anyway? Wasn't he supposed to be here to give me a report on those English spies he duped?"

Heydrich promptly answered "Herr Reichsfuehrer, he is coming in two hours. On my orders this affair is terminated, and I sent him to arrest and bring those english spies. We couldn't risk it anymore after last night."

"Good thinking there, Reinhard. Good thinking. I know these spies were amateurs, and their games were foolish. However if anything leaked, and especially after last night, it could get rather exciting for two of us."

"Herr Reichsfuehrer we must be sure they didn't get into contact with any other insurgent group inside Reich. As unlikely a prospect as it may be, I must make sure."

"Well, I must go now. Goering has summoned me for a security briefing. He seems to be affraid of shadows right now. Peronally report to me the progress of Elsers interogation. And, Reinhard, from now on file everything on this person in "Special security file Eller"."

"Jawohl herr Reichfuehrer!"

1000 Berlin, Reichstag

Goering entered into grand chamber. Instead of his customary Luftwaffe uniform, he was dressed in black suit, swastika on his collar, black ribbon on his arm. He was followed by mean looking SS men of formerly Hitlers security detail. Entire room has been sweeped multiple times for explosives. Nobody without written permission, signed by Himmler himself, was allowed within five hundred meters of Reichstag for entire morning. Air was alive with buzzing of airplane engines, as two squadrons of Luftwafee fighters raced above Reichstag. Entire tank regiment isolated Reichstag square, soldiers manning tank machine guns at ready, ominously scanning environment. As Goering entered the room the men sitting there rose to their feets, right hands extended in Nazi salute. Entire who-is-who of Third Reich was present inside this room. "Volksgenosen of Greater German Reich," started Goering "I undertake the responsibility of leadership in these tragic circumstances with no reservations. Although our grieving has not and never will end, I had to organize this ceremony, for danger of leaving the Reich leaderless at time like this was unthinkable. Let no body doubt that persons responsible for yesterdays terrorism will get their dues and that their terror will be answered with double and triple measure. Entire Reich will curse those names forever. As our only true Fuehrer Adolf Hitler was taken from us, I declare his title singular and unique. I myself will take on title of Reichspraesident and Reichskanzler, which will be put to vote by entire Volk. Should I earn your trust in free election, I will assume this title for life." At that moment Thierack approached. He started "I, state your name, solemnly swear..." That marked ascension to the power of Herman Goering. Entire ceremony took half an hour. Radio program continued with a broadcast on Hitlers life and achievements. Only interuptions were five minute reports from the front that were broadcasted every hour.

Meanwhile, in the same building, few offices away, Albert Speer quietly continued his work, sketching monumental mausoleum for his idol, Adolf Hitler. Tears flowing down his cheeks occasionaly threatened to ruin his sketches, forcing him to look away and wipe them.

1200 Broadcasting House, Information office
"This is Home Service, on the next beep it will be precisely twelve o'clock! This is the News" said speaker in front of the microphone "Today, after an announcement that head of German government Adolf Hitler is dead, His Majesty's Government held and immediate War Cabinet Session. Proclamation of willingness of this governement to pursue war until terms of Ultimatum issued on September the 3rd this year was unanimously approved and sent to House off Commons. House of Commons accepted the text of proclamation, which was sent to the representatives of German Government by wireless. Text of proclamation goes as follows: Government of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will pursue ongoing war against Germany and her sattelites or associated powers further, no matter what internal power structure or head of the German government might be. Our peace terms are unambiguous and not subject to change. We are willing to conclude peace with Germany right now if terms outlined in ultimatum are fully complied with. Mr. Macmillan of Her Majesty Governments also added that United Kingdom and her Allies have no wish to wage war or impose unjust terms, bound to be opposed by majority of German people. Our only wish, according to Mr. Macmillan is that peoples of Europe, including Germans, have equal rights and independence. In other news, similar proclamation was issued by French Governement. Situation on the frontline is stable, with only minor skirmishes reported. There were no British casualties reported. These were the news. Continue listening to our programming for up to date news and music."

Last edited by Shaby; October 2nd, 2011 at 05:10 PM..
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  #24  
Old September 30th, 2011, 12:33 PM
Hörnla Hörnla is offline
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The idea that you beat a native language-person with no-knowledge is funny...
it is tot... simply... read a book about german language, come back and appologize
As a German, I second informationfan. If there was ever a spelling "todt" (there probably was, before the works of Grimm and Duden in the 19th century, you could spell German quite liberally), it would have been long obsolete by 1939.

Also, it is always "der (the) Führer", not Führer. It is the same as with
"leader". You wouldn't say "leader has been killed".

The hymn on Göring....well, he wouldn't only make mistakes, but he is not an ideal leader as well.

I generally imagine him as a sort of German Mussolini. I would be so disappointed to ever hear that they wouldn't have gotten along quite well.

---

Further remarks: Göring would most probably not have spoken of "citizens" (Bürger) of the Third Reich, but rather of "Volksgenossen des Großdeutschen Reiches" (Volksgenossen is hard to translate, "national comrades" would suit but still sounds bad). Citizens would be rather un-nationalsocialist and would sound like a move away from the kind of dictatorship which in German is named "Führerstaat". "Third Reich" was a rather unofficial term. Especially in the late 30s, the name "Großdeutsches Reich" would have been very much emphasised as it brough the Anschluss of Austria to memory.

The Reichstag was not being restored as a Parliament after the fire in 1933, but instead used as an exhibition hall (later in the war as a hospital). It would have been usable, but would not look like a Parliament, i.e. there wouldn't have been chairs unless mobile chairs were placed there for the occassions. As Nuremberg showed, though, Nazis don't shy away from standing around.

One note on the maosoleum. IIRC, Hitler had expressed a wish to be buried in Linz. If this would have been honored is up to the timeline's author.

Freisler would most probably not have sworn in Göring. The infamous Volksgerichtshof, which he later chaired, was a special court in order to deal with cases of high treason. It would even to a Nazi seem inappropriate to use the president of the Volksgerichtshof to swear in the head of state. Head of the Volksgerichtshof was at this point of time Herr Thierack.
The "supreme" court in Germany was, as during the Weimar Republic, still the Reichsgericht in Leipzig. Erwin Bumke (NSDAP member since '37) would have been his president. Another option would have been the Reichsjustizminister, Dr. Franz Gürtner (NSDAP, formerly DNVP).

Last edited by Hörnla; September 30th, 2011 at 01:31 PM..
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  #25  
Old September 30th, 2011, 01:50 PM
Eurofed Eurofed is offline
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Subscribed. I have a TL (currently in indefinite hiatus) with the same PoD. It shall be most interesting to see to which degree, and how, your TL converges or diverges from mine (also because you are using a vignette writing style which I'm challenged in).
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  #26  
Old September 30th, 2011, 02:54 PM
rob in cal rob in cal is offline
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Good thread. One thing I remember is that Goring specifically told his wife that he would have made coming to peace with the allies a priority had he come to power in Nov 1939.

Also, George Bonnet is no longer foreign minister. He was forced out a few days after the war started, due to his anti-war stance, and I believe was then education minister. I believe Daladier took over the job in addition to being prime minister.

I don't think the allies would have insisted on Germany giving up Austria and the Sudetenland at this point. The intriguing question is, if Germany allowed a smaller Poland, with all the old pre-World War one area going back to Germany, would this be a basis for discussion, combined with the reintroduction of an independent Czechia.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 03:40 PM
gladiator8085 gladiator8085 is offline
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Looking forward to what is happening.
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  #28  
Old September 30th, 2011, 04:31 PM
abc123 abc123 is offline
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I don't think the allies would have insisted on Germany giving up Austria and the Sudetenland at this point. The intriguing question is, if Germany allowed a smaller Poland, with all the old pre-World War one area going back to Germany, would this be a basis for discussion, combined with the reintroduction of an independent Czechia.
I agree.
That's the minimum that Germans can accept as basis for peace...
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  #29  
Old September 30th, 2011, 04:33 PM
abc123 abc123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Hörnla View Post
---

Further remarks: Göring would most probably not have spoken of "citizens" (Bürger) of the Third Reich, but rather of "Volksgenossen des Großdeutschen Reiches" (Volksgenossen is hard to translate, "national comrades" would suit but still sounds bad). Citizens would be rather un-nationalsocialist and would sound like a move away from the kind of dictatorship which in German is named "Führerstaat".
True.
Volksgenossen could maybe be translated as members of (German) Nation.
Definitly not Citizen.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 05:23 PM
Eurofed Eurofed is offline
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With Goring (or the Heer) in charge of Germany, and Chamberlain still the British Premier, a compromise peace between the Entente and Germany is quite feasible in 1939-40. Neither side would be anxious to engage in a fight to the death if they can avoid it. Goring and the Heer greatly feared a general war with the Entente or the USSR would lead to a second defeat of Germany and were not any eager to enact Hitler's Lebensraum plans on Eastern Europe if the price was a general war. The Entente feared a long, exhausting re-enactment of the WWI carnage that would destabilize their colonial empires and open the way to a Soviet conquest of Europe. Hitler had proven untrustworthy, but with a new German leadership, a compromise becomes quite doable.

A feasible peace deal would likely involve the restoration of the independence of post-Munich Czechia and of Poland with the borders of 1807 or 1914 (depending on diplomatic butterflies), or perhaps Posen would get partitioned. Germany would surely keep Austria, the Sudetenland, Danzig, West Prussia, and Upper Silesia. A population exchange of minorities between Germany and Poland is quite likely, to entrench the new political border as an ethnic one. Optionally, if the peace deal gets especially favorable to Poland, it may keep Gdynia as a port exclave, with an internationally-guaranteed extraterritorial connection. In Poland, the pro-Entente government in exile would have to be returned to power. In Czechia, the pro-German government of Emil Hacha would remain into power, as it was the legitimate government since before the German invasion, and Benes would not be allowed to return. The separation of Czechia and Slovakia would endure.

Germany and Britain would in all likelihood restore their Naval Agreement of 1935, and extend it to submarines. France and Germany may or may not bargain some mutual limitation of forces in Alsace-Lorraine and Rhineland, but in all likelihood Germany would have to reaffirm its renunciation to claims on Alsace-Lorraine, Luxemburg, and South Tyrol.

Last edited by Eurofed; September 30th, 2011 at 06:04 PM..
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  #31  
Old September 30th, 2011, 05:52 PM
Eurofed Eurofed is offline
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The office of Reichsprasident was deliberately left vacant after Hindenburg's death; the Weimar constitution required the Reichsprasident to obey the Constitution, which would have been inconvenient for the Nazis, but the Reichskanzler was only required to obey the Reichsprasident. So, no Reichsprasident, no one to gainsay the Reichskanzler, who then has carte blanche once he gains control of the Reichstag.
Actually, this is not correct. After Hindenburg's death, Hitler assumed the office of Reichsprasident and merged it by decree with the one of Reichskanzler he already held. The succession and merger was confirmed by plebiscite. In November 1939, there was a standing decree of Hitler to make Goring the legal designated successor. If Goring calls a plebiscite to confirm the succession, he's following Hitler's precedent. He would still be Reichsprasident and Reichskanzler, regardless of whether he decides to make "Fuhrer" a special title for Hitler only, until and unless he decides to divide the two offices again.

An important side issue is that the Wehrmacht was bound by a personal oath of loyalty to Hitler. Until they re-swear one to Goring, they are not bound to any special loyalty to him nor to the Nazi regime.

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Originally Posted by abc123 View Post
And why then Hitler named Donitz as Reichsprasident and Goebbels as Chancellor?
Why not name Donitz as Fuhrer?

It was widely held opinion at the time that Fuhrer is sui generis title for Hitler only, and that his heirs will not be Fuhrers...
Hitler was free to keep the two offices merged (as he did when he named Goring as successor for both in 1939) or to split them again (as he did in 1945, as you note), as he deemed best at the time.

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Originally Posted by Shaby View Post
"Citizens of Third Reich," started Goering "I undertake the responsibility of leadership in these tragic circumstances with no reservations. Although our grieving has not and never will end, I had to organize this ceremony, for danger of leaving the Reich leaderless at time like this was unthinkable. Let no body doubt that persons responsible for yesterdays terrorism will get their dues and that their terror will be answered with double and triple measure. Entire Reich will curse those names forever. As our only true Fuehrer Adolf Hitler was taken from us, I declare his title singular and unique. I myself will take on title of Reichspraesident, which will be put to vote by entire Volk. Should I earn your trust in free election, I will assume this title for life." At that moment Roland Freisler approached. He started "I, state your name, solemnly swear..." That marked ascension to the power of Herman Goering.
Since Goring here is apparently following Hitler's precedent by taking over as Reichspraesident AND Reichskanzler (otherwise he would name a different person as Reichskanzler in his takeover speech), the entry should remark his statement as such, that is "As our only true Fuehrer Adolf Hitler was taken from us, I declare his title singular and unique. I myself will take on title of Reichspraesident and Reichskanzler, which will be put to vote by entire Volk. Should I earn your trust in free election, I will assume this title for life."

Last edited by Eurofed; September 30th, 2011 at 07:55 PM..
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Old September 30th, 2011, 06:11 PM
Eurofed Eurofed is offline
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Originally Posted by Shaby View Post
Ciano and Badoglio were summoned from their houses by Il Duce and having arrived in front of Palace, were ushered instantly into the grand room to find only Mussolini sitting there. He greeted them and offered them to sit down. "Adolf Hitler is dead!" said Benito, matter of factly. "The fool got himself killed in one of those foolish anniversary celebration of his failed emulation of our glorious March on Rome." Ciano was the first to respond "Well that simplifies things for us, doesn't it?" "Si, conte. We now have no obligation toward Nazi Germany. We are free to form our own policy." answered Mussolini. "Badoglio, how soon can you prepare and mobilize the Army?" "For what, sir?" "Unforeseen circumstences! What sort of question is that?"
This part does not seem too much plausible. Mussolini had staked a lot of his foreign policy in the last half-decade on the partnership with Nazi Germany. The sudden death of Hitler would in all likelihood fill him with doubt and uneasiness, and here instead he sounds a bit too much confident and ready to exploit the situation. Moreover, although his personal relationship with Hitler was psychologically complex, the two men fancied each other friends, he would not speak in such disparaging terms of his fallen dictator pal.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 06:18 PM
Eurofed Eurofed is offline
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At these words, Halder and Brauchitsch exchanged glances, which Wilhelm did not notice "We must act now and take over government if we have any hope of peace treaty." Halder retorted "To accept what? Give up Poland, for which my troops shed their blood? Even if I personally could get over that, no officer in the army will accept it. We would be hung from the poles by our own soldiers." Brauchitsch joined in "No, no, no! I could never order an Army to abandon the field of battle which they just conquered. We must be safe from the Bolsheviks and to be safe we must hold Poland!". Canaris frowned at this. "Franz, Walther you cannot be serious?" asked Canaris "We have this opportunity alone. Goering has the ear of almost every industrialist in Germany. If he manages to consolidate his power, I doubt that we will have this opportunity again. Besides, my Fremde Heere West estimates that French could throw up to 100 divisions on us. Our sources claim French have over 3000 tanks, some of them better than what we have. Although the England has not been able to provide serious forces yet, our intelligence suggests they have few divisions of their Expeditionary Army fortifying at Belgian frontier. Military situation is grave, you know it better than me." Few minutes of silence passed, as both officers pondered knowns and unknowns. Halder was first to voice his oppinion "Herr Wilhelm, you are right, French are much more powerful than Wehrmacht at the moment. However, campagn season is at least five months away. Currently Wehrmacht has around 70 divisions of all categories mobilized and ready, while some 40 are forming up. We managed to beat Poland at about 1:1 ratio. Before our triumph over Poles I wasn't very confident in our own armed forces, but now I believe that we can hold our own in combat. This time we will do it right, there will be no Army in Prussia, and we will hit France with all our might!". Canaris said "Oh my God, people, what do you want? To lose another war, again?" "No need to be dramatic Wilhelm. As soon as our positions in France are secured we will ask and get a peace treaty. I am sure English are as afraid of Bolshevik as they are of us. They will not be as eager to continue the war once the France is off the table. In the meantime we must take over this country, as the extreme elements of Nazis will taint our cause." concluded Brauchitsch. "Ok. I shall contact the others and revive the pre-Munich plan!" added Halder.
Here the Heer generals sound far too belligerant, much more than it was plausible. As a rule, the German officers had no love for the Poles (they were actually rather more anti-Polish than antisemitic) and were quite determined to recover and keep the Polish territories that Germany had lost in 1914, but they also were rather afraid that a long, general war with the Entente would bring Germany to a second defeat. And certainly they would not be eager to make a general offensive in the West if they can avoid it (they feared it would turn out a failure like Plan Schliffen did, it was Hitler that was eager to attack Western Europe as soon as possible). They would support any compromise peace with the Entente that leaves Germany with its irredentistic claims (Austria, Sudetenland, Danzig, West Prussia, Upper Silesia, if at all possible Posen too), even if the price is to restore an independent Czechia and Poland, as long as the Soviets are not left free to gobble them. Their ideas and the ones of the neo-Wilhelmine Nazi faction that Goring represented were in broad agreement about foreign policy. If they do make a coup, it is in all likelihood either to stop growing domestic instability due to a succession struggle between the Nazi bigwings, or to counter the threat of a takeover by the radical Himmler-Heydrich SS faction of the Nazi regime, which they hated and feared. Certainly not to enforce a a-historical belligerant foreign policy platform.

Last edited by Eurofed; September 30th, 2011 at 07:50 PM..
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  #34  
Old September 30th, 2011, 06:51 PM
abc123 abc123 is offline
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Originally Posted by Eurofed View Post
Here the Heer generals sound far too belligerant, much more than it was plausible. As a rule, the German officers had no love for the Poles (as a rule, the they were actually rather more anti-Polish than antisemitic) and were quite determined to recover and keep the Polish territories that Germany had lost in 1914, but they also were actually rather afraid that a long, general war with the Entente would bring Germany to a second defeat. And certainly they would not be eager to make a general offensive in the West if they can avoid it (they feared it would turn out like Plan Schliffen did, it was Hitler that was eager to attack as soon as possible). They would support any compromise peace with the Entente that leaves Germany with its irredentistic claims (Austria, Sudetenland, Danzig, West Prussia, Upper Silesia, optimally Posen too), even if the price is to restore an independent Czechia and Poland, as long as the Soviets are not left free to gobble them. Their ideas and the ones of the neo-Wilhelmine Nazi faction that Goring represented were in broad agreement about foreign policy. If they do make a coup, it is in all likelihood either to stop growing domestic instability due to a succession struggle between the Nazi bigwings, or to counter the threat of a takeover by the radical Himmler-Heydrich SS faction of the Nazi regime, which they hated and feared. Certainly not to enforce a a-historical belligerant foreign policy platform.
I agree.
Maybe if in case of serious in-Party power struggles some of right-wingers try something against Goring, Wehramacht could then try to seize power.
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Old September 30th, 2011, 08:09 PM
Eurofed Eurofed is offline
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I agree.
Maybe if in case of serious in-Party power struggles some of right-wingers try something against Goring, Wehramacht could then try to seize power.
Yep. If the threat of a radical Nazi takeover is real, and Goring survives it, in all likelihood he would remain in charge through a power-sharing agreement with the Heer. If he's killed or incapacitated, or he's seen as an ineffectual dupe of the radicals, the Heer would directly take over with a junta government. In both cases, the SS network would be disbanded, the Waffen-SS (in an embryonic state in 1939 anyway) merged with the Wehrmacht, and Himmler, Heydrich, and Kaltenbrunner would be put up against a wall. Goebbels would probably manage to make himself useful to the new ruling clique. The Gestapo would be purged of Nazi radicals, and put under the direction of Arthur Nebe and Heinrich Muller.
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  #36  
Old September 30th, 2011, 08:36 PM
abc123 abc123 is offline
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I woul'd be intrested to see all of this from Goering's perspective....
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  #37  
Old September 30th, 2011, 08:37 PM
abc123 abc123 is offline
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Who would he put in charge of his beloved LW?

Hans Jesschonek was Chief of LW Staff at the time...

Last edited by abc123; September 30th, 2011 at 08:42 PM.. Reason: .
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  #38  
Old September 30th, 2011, 09:04 PM
Adler17 Adler17 is offline
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Originally Posted by Eurofed View Post
Here the Heer generals sound far too belligerant, much more than it was plausible. As a rule, the German officers had no love for the Poles (they were actually rather more anti-Polish than antisemitic) and were quite determined to recover and keep the Polish territories that Germany had lost in 1914, but they also were rather afraid that a long, general war with the Entente would bring Germany to a second defeat. And certainly they would not be eager to make a general offensive in the West if they can avoid it (they feared it would turn out a failure like Plan Schliffen did, it was Hitler that was eager to attack Western Europe as soon as possible). They would support any compromise peace with the Entente that leaves Germany with its irredentistic claims (Austria, Sudetenland, Danzig, West Prussia, Upper Silesia, if at all possible Posen too), even if the price is to restore an independent Czechia and Poland, as long as the Soviets are not left free to gobble them. Their ideas and the ones of the neo-Wilhelmine Nazi faction that Goring represented were in broad agreement about foreign policy. If they do make a coup, it is in all likelihood either to stop growing domestic instability due to a succession struggle between the Nazi bigwings, or to counter the threat of a takeover by the radical Himmler-Heydrich SS faction of the Nazi regime, which they hated and feared. Certainly not to enforce a a-historical belligerant foreign policy platform.
The compromise you say here (German areas to Germany, Poland an Czechia rstored) were already proposed by Hitler to a US magnate, who had come to Germany sent by Roosevelt. However, as he returned, Roosevelt did not want to know anything about it anymore.

Adler
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  #39  
Old September 30th, 2011, 09:13 PM
Eurofed Eurofed is offline
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Originally Posted by Adler17 View Post
The compromise you say here (German areas to Germany, Poland an Czechia rstored) were already proposed by Hitler to a US magnate, who had come to Germany sent by Roosevelt. However, as he returned, Roosevelt did not want to know anything about it anymore.
In late 1939 - early 1940, the ability of the US government to influence the success or failure of a compromise peace between Germany and the Entente would be limited. America was still neutral, and Britain was not yet economically dependent on American support (Land-Lease did not exist yet).
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Old September 30th, 2011, 09:51 PM
Shaby Shaby is offline
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Thank you all for the comments. I will try to incorporate ideas I like and which I feel will fit the story. I agree that Halder may sound a bit more bellicose. I just had a feeling that an easy victory in Poland could have started pushing Halder toward Halder of 1941, when he was drafting global domination strategy. Also I guess soldiers mindset is a bit different once war has been declared.

As for Mussolini, I always thought he wasn't quite fond of Hitler, at least not until he got himself into the mess he couldn't get out. Admitedly, I may have overstated his reaction a bit.
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