WI High Seas Fleet not scuttled at Scapa Flow?

[Color-Copycat]

Which of the Allies would get what ships, and how would this affect the terms of the Washington Naval Treaty? Would the French and British be forced to scrap some of the German capital ships in order to get their total number of battleships down to size?

[Origins]

I guess a good number would be scrapped, but I could see some being put into non-military roles (training, target practice, ectera).

[jony663]

They could be used to buy off the Allies in southern Europe. Italy and Greece may not start their adventures post war in the Balkans and Turkey.

[RandomChance]

Hi All,

One interesting possibility would have been selling on a number of ships on the cheap. The South American dreadnought race ran out of steam around this time - if a few second hand, lightly used German warships hit the Market at knockdown prices, things may change. The money would be useful, particularly for UK and France.

[The Oncoming Storm]

Welcome to the board Random Chance!

I'm sure I read somewhere that the French were pushing hard at Versailles to get many of the HSF's most modern units to bolster their fleet.

[RandomChance]

That would've had an interesting post war effect on the French fleet, especially if they kept some of the later ships such as the Derfflingers or Bayerns. If these stuck around to Hitler's little shindig 20 years later, I can see a worried Royal Navy during the fall of France. Hitler would love to get his hands on "German property", not to mention a more complicated Operation Catapult.
Would we have seen the French take carriers more seriously? with ex-German capital ships beefing up the numbers, money and building capacity would be there to look at conversions or new build. I guess it depends on the French opinion of such ideas during the interwar period.

I do like the idea of a few big hulls heading to Brazil (perhaps in lieu of the Riachuelo) or Chile.

[ivanotter]

I always thought that the HSF was not too attractive to UK, US and partly) to France, insofar as the capital ships were not designed for being at sea for any length of time.

A quick afternoon cruise in the North Sea and that was abouts it.

It would mean that they could not keep up with the typical patrol duties, especially of the US Pacific fleet.

Comments?

[sharlin]

I belive the French wanted the Koenig class or the Hindenburg and Derrflinger, most of the French fleet was obsolete pre-dreadnoughts and even their first dreadnoughts were showing their age, the german ships would have been a nice boost to their fleet.

[Giysqun Wilde]

If they wanted them they would have just taken them. No real need, though. Submarines and aircraft carriers were the future anyways, even if it was not seen at the time.

[lothaw]

Originally Posted by Giysqun Wilde

If they wanted them they would have just taken them. No real need, though. Submarines and aircraft carriers were the future anyways, even if it was not seen at the time.

The French always do seem to be ready to fight the last war.

[sharlin]

Newp, the Germans were held at Scapa until the Armstice was agreed. The french simply could not have taken the German vessels. Them being at Scapa was part of the peace treaty's workings.

[HMS Erin]

This also means Germany might keep Nassau class ships instead of the predreadnoughts of OTL.

[sharlin]

I doubt it, the Pre-dreads were cheaper to run, the Nassaus were also just as obsolete by the end of the war.

[NHBL]

The disposal of the High Seas Fleet was a potentially VERY acrimonious issue among the victors. Monst of the ships are really only suitable for fighting in the North Sea--or other local enviroments. Thus, in French hands, they could contest local control with Britain--in Italian hands, they could contest the Mediteranean with Britain and France. Yet, they were almost worthless to the USA and Britian--very limited use. Also, using a different ship, with no parts on hand, is expensive--not worthwhile unless you are getting great value.

In short, only good for the have-nots of naval power, and of limited value for the ones that had a strong fleet.

[RandomChance]

Originally Posted by NHBL

The disposal of the High Seas Fleet was a potentially VERY acrimonious issue among the victors. Monst of the ships are really only suitable for fighting in the North Sea--or other local enviroments. Thus, in French hands, they could contest local control with Britain--in Italian hands, they could contest the Mediteranean with Britain and France. Yet, they were almost worthless to the USA and Britian--very limited use. Also, using a different ship, with no parts on hand, is expensive--not worthwhile unless you are getting great value.

In short, only good for the have-nots of naval power, and of limited value for the ones that had a strong fleet.

This is why I wondered about the South American option. Chile, Argentina and Brazil (the have-nots?) were all buying up ships just prior to the war. The German ships lack of range etc wouldn't be a major issue to these nations as it's not like they were planning on global operations. They wouldn't be seen as much of a threat to the great powers as they wouldn't buy many of them, plus they operate in the southern hemisphere.

I suppose the Japanese might be another possible buyer for some ships, but the range question is a problem here, other than for a 'home fleet' to operate near China/eastern Russia.

The smaller units (cruisers and smaller) might be attractive to countries in Europe - Benelux, Scandinavia for example.

I should've been an arms dealer

[Color-Copycat]

Ok, since the distribution of the ships among the Allies seems to be a contentious issue, how plausible would it be if they chose to scrap the fleet (used them as target practice, etc) but salvage the big guns for coastal defense fortifications? Would that be enough to satisfy the French, British, and Italians?

Also, I'm of the opinion that the Japanese wouldn't buy up the fleet. It's a much better investment for them to build brand new vessels in order to stimulate their shipbuilding industry and stay on the cutting edge of developments in naval warfare.

The South American propositions sounds pretty good, though. I don't know if there's any more impetus for Brazil, Chile, and the others to keep up their naval arms race, but if their respective governments had the money to spend, why not?

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by Color-Copycat

Ok, since the distribution of the ships among the Allies seems to be a contentious issue, how plausible would it be if they chose to scrap the fleet (used them as target practice, etc) but salvage the big guns for coastal defense fortifications? Would that be enough to satisfy the French, British, and Italians?

That is basically what happened to the German and Austro-Hungarian fleets anyway. The problem with using the guns for coastal fortifications is that one needs the ammunition for them (not to mention manuals) and there are probably only limited amounts available from the Germans. It would be an expensive effort converting them to coastal fortifications.

[Color-Copycat]

I don't think lack of shells would be a problem. Krupp manufactured most of the German naval rounds, and with the French and Belgians occupying the Ruhr, the Allies could pretty much dictate the industrial output of the Krupp plants there.

Even better: convert them to railway guns! I think they did that with some naval guns during/after WWI as well.

[NHBL]

Regarding guns, remember that even guns of the same size usually need different shells. The United States in World War II set up a seperate production line for 15" shells for the Richileu--but then, that was not a problem for the mid to late World War II USA.

I could see each of the major nations wanting one of the latest German battlecruisers for analysis--though Britain would likely insist that the treaty include scrapping them, rather than using them. After all, Britain's battlecruisers BLOW UP, and German ones don't...knowing why would be a good thing...

[sharlin]

The british BC's blew up mainly due to piss poor ammo control procedures, including the removal of safety doors between the magazine and turret and the storing of extra cordite charges in the turrets. Also the British propellant exploded, the german one burned.