German... fascism?!?

[Strategos' Risk]

I'm tempted to revive either of the various fascism definition discussion threads from the past couple of weeks, but I wanted to bring this to your attention:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...ople%27s_Party

The German National People's Party (German: Deutschnationale Volkspartei, DNVP) was a national conservative party in Germany during the time of the Weimar Republic. Before the rise of the NSDAP it was the main nationalist party in Weimar Germany composed of nationalists, reactionary monarchists, völkisch, and antisemitic elements, and supported by the Pan-German League.

And also!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stahlhe..._Frontsoldaten

Although the Stalhelm was officially a non-party entity and above party politics, after 1929 it took on an anti-republican and anti-democratic character. Its goals were a German Dictatorship, the preparation of a Revanchist program, and the direction of local anti-parliamentarian action. For this reason its members distinguished themselves from the NSDAP as "German Fascists". Among their further demands were the establishment of a Greater Germanic People's Reich, struggle against Social Democracy, the "mercantilism of the Jews" and the general liberal democratic worldview, and attempted without success to place candidates favorable to the politics of a German expansion to the East.

So, um, what if Germany in the '30s was taken over by fascism.

[Beedok]

I must be misreading this.

[Meadow]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I must be misreading this.

It's quite simple, really. The Nazis were not, in the Italian or 'traditional' sense, Fascists. They were, in their own words, 'National Socialists'. Both systems are similar but have key differences, mainly economic.

The DNVP taking power has been discussed elsewhere, I think. I don't know much about it, but people have talked about the success of the Kapp Putsch (potentially ASB) leading to an Italofascist-style Germany.

[The Space Viking]

I thought that the Kapp Putsch was more of a general right-wing monarchist attempt to seize power. Maybe they put this guy on the throne, I think that would be pretty boss.

[yourworstnightmare]

DNVP's problems are they are not Fascists. They don't appeal to the large masses for a nationalist revolution, but are more a Conservative Reactionary group that only appeal to the elite.

[The Admiral Hook]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

DNVP's problems are they are not Fascists. They don't appeal to the large masses for a nationalist revolution, but are more a Conservative Reactionary group that only appeal to the elite.

Maybe some sort of Nationalist Coalition with other nationalist groups in Germany could rise up? (I know this could present its own set of... er... Nazi problems.)

[Snake Featherston]

You'd see something like Schusnigg's dictatorship in Austria on a much bigger scale.

[Strategos' Risk]

Would there be friendlier relations with Dollfuss's Austria? Or is German expansionism in that area independent of Nazi control or not. If this differently fascist Germany is friends with Austrofacist Austria, it would be amusing to see them propping them up against the Austrian National Socialists, and hence Nazism ends up being an insurgent movement in both nations, subject to being stamped out by the fascist heel.

[yourworstnightmare]

Germany will go for lost territories. You can't change that.

[Strategos' Risk]

Would they be a little less dominating towards the Austrians, though? Maybe allowing the VF as a regional party, while outlawing the rival Nazis (both in Austria and the rest of Germany).

Though I don't think the DNVP (or whichever non-Nazi right-wing movement that takes over) would necessarily be more moderate than the Nazis. They were largely anti-Semitic as well. I wonder how they would compare at all. But certainly they would lose some of the inherent weirdness associated with Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, and the rest; hopefully that would include exterminationist tendencies.

[The Admiral Hook]

I'm interested in a nationalist coalition, personally. Perhaps even one that includes both Nazis and ultra-conservative monarchists... If possible.

It would make the rise for power easier, but the ensuing clusterfuck of wrestling for control much more intense.

[octaviuz]

Originally Posted by TheInfiniteApe

I'm interested in a nationalist coalition, personally. Perhaps even one that includes both Nazis and ultra-conservative monarchists... If possible.

It would make the rise for power easier, but the ensuing clusterfuck of wrestling for control much more intense.

Sounds like the Spanish Civil War (Franco was all things to all people on the right, at least until the war was over)

[The Admiral Hook]

Didn't think of that. So, yeah, there's a historical precedent for such an event. I think a Nazi struggle for prominence inside an ultra-conservative nationalist coalition government (particularly one including monarchists AND fascists) would make for a good read.

[The Ubbergeek]

Originally Posted by Meadow

It's quite simple, really. The Nazis were not, in the Italian or 'traditional' sense, Fascists. They were, in their own words, 'National Socialists'. Both systems are similar but have key differences, mainly economic.

The DNVP taking power has been discussed elsewhere, I think. I don't know much about it, but people have talked about the success of the Kapp Putsch (potentially ASB) leading to an Italofascist-style Germany.

But both are far-right.

[Enigmajones]

Have Hugenberg not give control of his press to Goebbels. Takes away the much needed support of big business that the Nazi's would come to enjoy. The DNVP keeps big business, they could have taken power with the help of a military coup. They lacked the support for an elected government.

Also you could have a successful Kapp Putsch. But that might be ASB.

[Scipio Africanus]

A very interesting idea. A Germany dominated by fascists instead of Nazis (in my opinion a form of fascism). This would mean a much less racialist Germany. Before the horrors of Naziism were revealed, fascism was not very stigmatized and much less feared than communism. A less racialist regime could avoid the bad press and buy itself more time for appeasement and rebuilding its military machine. Yes, Germany will certainly go for territory, but it will be either ethnic German or former German territory. It will not go for a massive campaign east to ethnically "purify" huge swathes of territory in Poland and Russia in and attempt to create a racial utopia. It will not be a regime led by goons and thugs, but by more educated, pragmatic, although obviously undemocratic men. The real question would be how "fascist" the regime would be, or whether it would be a run of the mill rightwing dictatorship. I am actually taking a history course on Naziism right now, and we have spend the first two weeks talking about the definition of fascism and whether the term actually has any meaning, so this was an aptly timed "what if".
Scipio

[Hyperbolus]

Shades of the Horthy regime in Hungary?

[lothaw]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

Germany will go for lost territories. You can't change that.

No, but a Fascist regime with a sense of self-preservation might do better in the long run.

Anchluss probably wouldn't happen, though the Sudenland and Danzig corridors are possible. If that's all they limited their territorial ambitions to, the only people who would squawk over that are the Czechs and Poles and history shows the great powers would overlook that.

[Strategos' Risk]

The more I think about it the more similar it is to Franco's Spain, but who plays the role of Franco? Though the Nazis may play the role of Falange, in that they get purged. Wait but then who represents the SA and the people the Nazis purged in OTL then. I don't even know.

[lothaw]

Originally Posted by Strategos' Risk

The more I think about it the more similar it is to Franco's Spain, but who plays the role of Franco? Though the Nazis may play the role of Falange, in that they get purged. Wait but then who represents the SA and the people the Nazis purged in OTL then. I don't even know.

Well it's not like Franco was a big player until Sanjurjo died and he suddenly found himself in charge of the Nationalists. That could actually be your POD there... Hitler dies in the Beerhall Putsch and who knows who's there to pick up the pieces.