Land of Flatwater: Protect and Survive Middle America

[Top hats daily]

Originally Posted by Canadian Dragon

I'm assuming that Soviet ground troops would have had to invade via the Mackenzie Delta, given the reports of Soviets in the Northwest Territories and Minnesota. Could Soviet ground troops get as far as Nebraska, assuming the fallout levels from the ICBM silo fields and that nuke near Medicine Hat have dropped to safe levels?

Right now, I'm writing up a P&S story set in Alberta, and will likely take into account the invading Soviet forces. Watch for it, as it's coming soon!

Just bombers, the Soviet "invasion" force is little more then some ragtag soldiers, airmen, and slowly more fanatic people everyday. The troops in Minnesota are basically bailed out airmen. Chip can either confirm or deny this, I'm probably wrong.

[Orville_third]

Originally Posted by Chipperback

(author's note -- C'mon Orville...You know you want to tell this story..Protect and Survive: Pride of the Palmettos)

Part of the trouble is that I was 4-5 when this story begins so I can't remember much. I'm also a detail freak so I'd likely have to do quite a bit of work just to get the characters I want.
Two other unique things that hinder my work- a friend of the family wrote part of a similar TL with his part set in SC on another website, and I don't want to steal his work. Second, I have an idea for a TL based on a different 1980's nuclear TV film*...which will take place a great deal in SC, and have a nuclear detonation...but things will turn out very differently. (I'll have to work in references to this in it...)

* I'll have to do some work around the film's plot. James Edwards would certainly have played a role both as Energy Secretary and ex-SC Governor were it real. Plus I have to work in how a fourth network will work... (You can probably guess the film now.)

[Apollo 20]

Originally Posted by thepenguin

Well, Sherrod Brown is more than likely inhabiting the upper atmosphere, Mansfield was his hometown, he didn't move to Cleveland (well, Avon Lake, but...) until he married Most Equal Comrade Connie Schultz of the People's Plain Dealer. That's the Governor, Lieutenant Governor, and Attorney General gone...
Along with Davis Besse, we also have the coal-fired plants at Eastlake, East 72nd Street, and Avon Point.

Sherrod was Ohio Secretary of State in 1984. Quite likely he was in Columbus or relocated with other state government constitutional officers if Ohio had anything similar to Nebraska organized. In fact, I should think there are a good number of places in Southern/Southeast Ohio that would be good relocation sites away from likely targets as long as you avoid the vicinity of the Piketon facility down around Portsmouth. Athens, for instance, might be a good safe spot. It would get fallout of course, but unless the Soviets were targeting universities, there isn't much there that would be a likely missile target that I can think of. The airport's too small for bombers and there isn't any major manufacturing in the area. Moreover, with most of the students likely sent home in the runup to war, it would have a surplus of usable buildings to use as a seat of government. Hmm....sounds like an outline for P&S: The Buckeye State.

Completely irrelevant to this discussion, but another likely target in Ohio that most people probably wouldn't think of is Lima, location of the manufacturing plant for the Abrams tank. It opened in 1980. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_Army_Tank_Plant

[thepenguin]

Originally Posted by Apollo 20

Sherrod was Ohio Secretary of State in 1984. Quite likely he was in Columbus or relocated with other state government constitutional officers if Ohio had anything similar to Nebraska organized. In fact, I should think there are a good number of places in Southern/Southeast Ohio that would be good relocation sites away from likely targets as long as you avoid the vicinity of the Piketon facility down around Portsmouth. Athens, for instance, might be a good safe spot. It would get fallout of course, but unless the Soviets were targeting universities, there isn't much there that would be a likely missile target that I can think of. The airport's too small for bombers and there isn't any major manufacturing in the area. Moreover, with most of the students likely sent home in the runup to war, it would have a surplus of usable buildings to use as a seat of government. Hmm....sounds like an outline for P&S: The Buckeye State.

Completely irrelevant to this discussion, but another likely target in Ohio that most people probably wouldn't think of is Lima, location of the manufacturing plant for the Abrams tank. It opened in 1980. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lima_Army_Tank_Plant

I thought Sherrod was Attorney General? Who was the AG then? The Lt. Gov might stay in Columbus, he had terminal cancer, and might prefer to do what he could in CBus until the warheads fell. Maybe Lima got spared just out of pure dumb luck... But in Southern Ohio, you have to deal with the fallout from Kentucky (In P&S The Last Game, it's inferred that Kentucky is absolutely schwacked), Indiana (Indianapolis), Illinois, and Missouri. Could have the surviving state government move to Parma just to spite Cleveland (Parma is Cleveland's largest suburb, and a five minute drive from my house.). I seriously think most of Northeast Ohio is intact, with the obvious exception of Akron.

[Apollo 20]

Originally Posted by thepenguin

I thought Sherrod was Attorney General? Who was the AG then? The Lt. Gov might stay in Columbus, he had terminal cancer, and might prefer to do what he could in CBus until the warheads fell. Maybe Lima got spared just out of pure dumb luck... But in Southern Ohio, you have to deal with the fallout from Kentucky (In P&S The Last Game, it's inferred that Kentucky is absolutely schwacked), Indiana (Indianapolis), Illinois, and Missouri. Could have the surviving state government move to Parma just to spite Cleveland (Parma is Cleveland's largest suburb, and a five minute drive from my house.). I seriously think most of Northeast Ohio is intact, with the obvious exception of Akron.

I forgot all about Myrl Shoemaker having cancer then. He was, if I recall right, from the Chillicothe area and would have likely have headed home. I can't imagine anyone wanting to hang around Columbus -- it would have been a huge target not only because it was the capital, but also because of Rickenbacker ANGB, which was tasked with refueling SAC bombers then and also the Defense Supply Center at Port Columbus Airport.

Tony Celebrezze, Jr. was the AG in '84.

Cleveland was spared -- but one wonders for how long. In any case, nobody in their right mind would plan on it being spared. That it was was a function of a faulty missile and nothing else. Pure dumb luck. And, with the Soviets gassing Minneapolis and likely having a few missiles out there, it's still a big bullseye. Unless and until hostilities are conclusively concluded, I'm not so sure it's a place I'd want to hang around if I had an alternative.

As for southeast Ohio versus other parts of the state, all I can say is that fallout is going to be a problem all over the state and every conceivable location has its issues and drawbacks. There are too many cities with important manufacturing or military facilities in the state and nearby and the wind patterns of winter out of the west and northwest are going to dump glowing dust from Detroit, Chicago, Indianapolis, St. Louis and points west on the state anyway in addition to what gets hit inside the state, which is likely to be quite a bit.

Bearing that in mind, Athens or somewhere else in SE Ohio seems as good a choice as any for a government relocation site as it is an unlikely target for a direct hit.

[JasonQ]

Originally Posted by Orville_third

Second, I have an idea for a TL based on a different 1980's nuclear TV film*...which will take place a great deal in SC, and have a nuclear detonation...but things will turn out very differently. (I'll have to work in references to this in it...)

Special Bulletin?

[thepenguin]

Originally Posted by Apollo 20

I forgot all about Myrl Shoemaker having cancer then. He was, if I recall right, from the Chillicothe area and would have likely have headed home. I can't imagine anyone wanting to hang around Columbus -- it would have been a huge target not only because it was the capital, but also because of Rickenbacker ANGB, which was tasked with refueling SAC bombers then and also the Defense Supply Center at Port Columbus Airport.

IDK, if he knew it was terminal, he'd probably want to help with last-minute evacs, he's going to die, might as well die doing something worthwhile, y'know?

Originally Posted by Apollo 20

Tony Celebrezze, Jr. was the AG in '84.

OK, figured it was either Celebrezze or Brown... You wouldn't know who the law director for Cleveland in 1984 was would you?

Originally Posted by Apollo 20

Cleveland was spared -- but one wonders for how long. In any case, nobody in their right mind would plan on it being spared. That it was was a function of a faulty missile and nothing else. Pure dumb luck. And, with the Soviets gassing Minneapolis and likely having a few missiles out there, it's still a big bullseye. Unless and until hostilities are conclusively concluded, I'm not so sure it's a place I'd want to hang around if I had an alternative.

Would there be some displaced fighters at Hopkins or Lakefront, maybe from ANG squadrons or the East Coast Replacement Air Groups? Would provide C-Town with an air-defense capability...

Originally Posted by Apollo 20

As for southeast Ohio versus other parts of the state, all I can say is that fallout is going to be a problem all over the state and every conceivable location has its issues and drawbacks. There are too many cities with important manufacturing or military facilities in the state and nearby and the wind patterns of winter out of the west and northwest are going to dump glowing dust from Detroit, Chicago, Indianapolis, St. Louis and points west on the state anyway in addition to what gets hit inside the state, which is likely to be quite a bit.

Bearing that in mind, Athens or somewhere else in SE Ohio seems as good a choice as any for a government relocation site as it is an unlikely target for a direct hit.

Speaking of which: what do these three cities have in common: Chillicothe, Zanesville, and Columbus?



And, I's got to know, will there again be an Ohio State University? Will we once again see Scarlet and Gray on fall Saturday afternoons?

[Apollo 20]

Originally Posted by thepenguin

IDK, if he knew it was terminal, he'd probably want to help with last-minute evacs, he's going to die, might as well die doing something worthwhile, y'know?

OK, figured it was either Celebrezze or Brown... You wouldn't know who the law director for Cleveland in 1984 was would you

Would there be some displaced fighters at Hopkins or Lakefront, maybe from ANG squadrons or the East Coast Replacement Air Groups? Would provide C-Town with an air-defense capability...

Speaking of which: what do these three cities have in common: Chillicothe, Zanesville, and Columbus?

And, I's got to know, will there again be an Ohio State University? Will we once again see Scarlet and Gray on fall Saturday afternoons?

Depends on his condition; if he was really ill at the time, he might not really be in much of a position to help. OTOH, one could make the argument that he'd be ordered to go home or to wherever the relocation facility was as in case he was needed as a successor. Or, alternatively, that he'd want to be with his family in Chillicothe.

I do not know offhand who the law director in Cleveland was in 1984. That position is the successor to the mayor, correct?

Very possible you'd see fighters at Hopkins, especially if everything in Toledo and Mansfield is scrambled and in the air when the attack starts.

Each has been the capital of Ohio at some point in the state's history.

I hope so -- even though I attended a certain school somewhat north of there that shall not be named -- and should think at some point it would be reconstituted. It's not looking too good for the Horseshoe, though. If downtown and Port Columbus each are hit, there is likely to be substantial blast damage...

[thepenguin]

Originally Posted by Apollo 20

Depends on his condition; if he was really ill at the time, he might not really be in much of a position to help. OTOH, one could make the argument that he'd be ordered to go home or to wherever the relocation facility was as in case he was needed as a successor. Or, alternatively, that he'd want to be with his family in Chillicothe.

I do not know offhand who the law director in Cleveland was in 1984. That position is the successor to the mayor, correct?

Very possible you'd see fighters at Hopkins, especially if everything in Toledo and Mansfield is scrambled and in the air when the attack starts.

Each has been the capital of Ohio at some point in the state's history.

I hope so -- even though I attended a certain school somewhat north of there that shall not be named -- and should think at some point it would be reconstituted. It's not looking too good for the Horseshoe, though. If downtown and Port Columbus each are hit, there is likely to be substantial blast damage...

Okay, point taken about Shoemaker.

I'm thinking that that position is the successor to Voinovich, but have had no luck at all finding out who that was....

Correct. Columbus is slagged. Zanesville? The new capital could be Chillicothe again in the far future.

Conveniently, Cleveland has a Municipal Stadium that kinda looks like a Horseshoe...

[Orville_third]

Originally Posted by JasonQ

Special Bulletin?

Yes! I made sure to see it not long ago (Sadly, it hasn't inspired the nostalgia (for lack of a better word) that "The Day After" and "Threads" had. Of course, you can find all sorts of things online that aren't necessarily legal...).
I'll have to do some backstory on the characters, be they the terrorists, or the RBS crew (I may just tie RBS in with "Seven Days in May"-Morgan McPherson, in the book, had a show on the RBS network...). I'll make sure James Edwards (ex-Governor of SC and ex-Energy Secretary under Reagan) plays a key role. I'll need to do some research on SC's emergency response plans and if the current SCEMD HQ was operational then. (Of course, I'll have SC Wing, CAP flying an Airborne Radiological Monitoring mission or two...)
And we'll have to deal with the aftermath, both on the area, on the survivors...and on the world. (I think the aforementioned movies may not be as likely to air...)

[TRoehl]

Can I just point out that there's almost no chance that a sitting member of the General Staff is going to replace Andropov. As screwy as the Soviet Union's political system was, it prided itself on not being run like a 3rd world Banana Republic-that means it's not directly run by the army or a General. The Armed forces, likewise. Even Andropov didn't go straight from the KGB to General Secretary; he stopped off in the Party Secretariat first (albeit briefly).

On the other hand, if things are going South quickly on the foreign stage, I can't see the Politburo picking a drooling, walking corpse like Chernenko either. My money would be on the Foreign Secretary, Gromyko, who was highly respected and is probably the best person to defuse the situation. Barring that, the Politburo (think of them as a group of octogenerian frenemies) will pick someone who they can all live with as a front man while ruling by consensus behind the scenes-probably not Gorbachev, given the situation, but someone like a Viktor Grishin or Nikolai Tikhonov. And none of those three names (not to mention the other 10 or so sitting on the Politburo) are going to let things get to the point where keys are being turned in launch control centers and missile sub wardrooms. The Politburo was, after all, the world's greatest self preservation society.

[Archangel]

Keep it up, Chip!

[Chuck Mandus]

Originally Posted by Apollo 20

Agree. In the US, with the exception of 121.5, the 121 frequencies are typically used for ground control. 121.4 and 121.6 are not used in the US, I believe. However, a bigger issue is that this band of VHF frequencies are line of sight. You'd be mighty unlikely to be picking up Minnesota on VHF on the ground in Nebraska. In the air, at high altitude, it could be possible though. It seems more plausible for them to be using HF, which is not bound by line of sight (and why HF is used for extended overwater communications).

I'm an amateur radio operator. It could also be atmospheric too although I'd rather have more dependable communications like HF for example. I did pick up an Air Force plane over Nebraska here in Pittsburgh in the 372 Mc range as well as Looking Glass from time to time on my police scanners. VHF can go over water fairly well, I once talked 50 miles across Lake Erie and 20 or 30 miles more inland into Ontario on my 2 meter (144-148 Mc) handie-talkie using the rubber duckie antenna and putting out 1 watt.

[Chuck Mandus]

Originally Posted by thepenguin

AM transmitter? It's claimed that 1100 WTAM can be heard in 34 states and parts of Canada. I've heard stations from Hamilton, Ontario and actually pulled in a Pirates game once....

KDKA here in Pittsburgh makes much the same claims although IIRC, I think Pittsburgh got it here. I know KDKA's transmitter is just north of the city in Allison Park, PA. It was (we got a new antenna in 1994) 718 feet tall, built in 1937, maybe it could have survived, I don't know. The only other 50kW in he general area woulds be 1170 in Wheeling, West Virginia, WWVA.

I've picked up WTAM/WWWE here in Pittsburgh very well although one time, Radio Habana Cuba was "walking over" it on AM.

[Chuck Mandus]

Keep up the good work, Chip! BTW, this might have been posted but what is the status of Pittsburgh and the surrounding area?

[Chipperback]

@Chuck Mandus -- Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania was incinerated by the opening direct Soviet attacks on priority economic targets on 21 February 1984.

Soviet Nuclear Rocket forces used three confirmed devices on the Pittsburgh Metropolitan Area to neutralize the steel productions area of the city.

BOTH major cities in Pennsylvania have been destroyed. The government from Cleveland have received scattered reports from the state. There are rumors that the state capital of Harrisburg was also hit by a lower-yield device. There are unconfirmed reports that multiple factions are claiming to be an emergency state government and have gathered at Penn State University.

TO: Executive Committee, Nebraska Continuous Emergency Government
FR: Governor J. Robert Kerrey
RE: Recent Contact

At 1809 hours 26 March 1984, ALPHA received confirmation of a radio transmission from national guard forces in the state of Minnesota. According to those reports, the surviving area around Minneapolis-St. Paul was the target of a nerve gas attack.
According to the transmission the attack was initiated by Soviet forces.

We have no confirmation on Soviet forces in North America outside this transmission. However, after consultation with Brigadier General Griswold/CINC-NEBCONFORCE, stinger-armed NCF teams will be placed at installations effective immediately, and all NCF air combat units will be at a heightened state of alert.

There are no plans for any increased military action at this point. Current patrol schedules will be maintained due to materiel and fuel usage.

THIS INFORMATION IS NOT TO BE DISCLOSED TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC!!!!!
WE DO NOT HAVE OFFICIAL CONFIRMATION OF THE INFORMATION!!!!!

We have received confirmation on a legitimacy of a "gathering order" sent out by an emergency federal government based in "Columbia".

U.S. Air Force personnel detained near Lincoln, upon hearing a recording of the transmission say the gathering order is ACTUAL. In concurrence with the Nebraska Combined Forces, I order that said personnel are RELEASED effective immediately. The ranking officer of the Bomber Recovery Unit confirms that their orders are to proceed to the point of origin of the "gathering order", which they state is near Walla Walla, Washington.

In kind, we have sent a message forward to be delivered to an acting President of the United States or similar civilian executive authority.

A farm near Ravenna, Nebraska 8:30pm

A father looks on his little girl, coughing, sick. She has that sickness they've been talking about on the radio. Many kids here have it.

"Ted," his wife pleaded as her husband loaded a rifle. "This is not the way to this."

"They say they have a way to fix this at the college in Kearney," he said. "Damn Government's gonna hold us out, just like they did with food."

Two of his neighbors were there, too. They were loading rifles. In a barn were 3 other kids. Sickened, feeble, possibly dying.

"We're hungry and sick, while those goddamned people in that Emergency Government are sitting high. Half of 'em working from the damn crazy people out over there."

The wife tried to stop his husband and 3 other men. It wouldn't work.

Four men. One pickup trick.



"Daddy where are you going," said a feeble young voice.

He looked at the little girl trying to keep from sobbing.

"Daddy just needs to take care of something," he said. "I will be back, I promise."

" The put on respirator masks and heading into the spring dusk with Winchesters slung on each shoulder."

to be continued.

[BrianD]

Originally Posted by Chipperback

Kentucky -- reports of a state government confirm.. UNCONFIRMED -- SecTrans Terrell Bell has survived in a FEMA installation in the state.

I need to finish The Last Game - which will take the reader up to the Day After the Exchange.

For those who have followed that thread, yes, Kentucky and Vanderbilt will play on the Sunday before.

I'm leaving anything that happens after The Last Game thread to Chipperback and whomever wants to take that project on. I will say that the Governor and most Cabinet and General Assembly leaders are in a bunker in Frankfort, the state capitol. The Supreme Court is hunkered down in Danville (Centre College), which also is hosting the HQ of the Kentucky National Guard.

Some legislators evacuated to Mammoth Cave, which took on a sizeable number of textbooks and materiel from nearby Western Kentucky University and the University of Louisville, as well as much of what had been in UofL's Speed Art Museum.

Speaking of Louisville, it got hit by three separate blasts. There are rumors that survivors are in an underground cave in the center of Jefferson County, based on transmissions received by the Emergency Metro Louisville and Jefferson County government from its headquarters in Taylorsville. They're rumors, though - no one has been able to go into the leveled city to check.

The missile intended for Fort Knox instead hit east into wooded areas, incinterating the town of Lebanon Junction and severely damaging Shepherdsville. There was light damage to Fort Knox itself, and to adjacent Radcliff and Elizabethtown.

Panic there is at an all time high.

Personnel at Fort Knox pulled out ahead of the explosion. Some are in Mumfordville, some in Mammoth Cave with the gold.

Bowling Green is hanging on, barely.

Fort Campbell is gone, and so are Hopkinsville and Cleveland, Tennessee.

Owensboro is hanging on by a thread, downwind from the explosion that took out Evansville.

FEMA has camps in Lexington, Middlesboro, Danville, Harrodsburg, Shelbyville, Paducah, Bowling Green, Ashland and Somerset. The SecTrans may be in the Middlesboro camp, in the part of the state that fared best as far as fallout is concerned.

Lexington - where The Last Game is set - is barely hanging on at this point. Food is being rationed, the resources at the University of Kentucky and Transylvania College being pushed to their limits. UK and TC professors and scientists are trying to produce medicine to alleviate the numerous maladies the public is suffering, but can't keep up.

Rupp Arena is the Louisiana Superdome after Katrina OTL.

The towns of Georgetown and Midway are gone, incinterated by the bomb that exploded over the Kentucky Horse Park, that was believed to have been intended for downtown Lexington.

[Archangel]

The survival of several Cabinet members will ease the initial authority consolidation process.

[BrianD]

Is Reagan's murder at the hands of the psycho British commando still canon?

[Matt Wiser]

The nearest field that can take the Bomber Recovery Team and any Buffs with them is Grant County IAP, near Moses Lake, WA. It used to be known as Larson AFB, and besides being a SAC and ADC facility, it's where Boeing crews delivered new B-52s built in Seattle to the AF.