AHC: More pidgin languaages

[Enigmajones]

Now I know about Afrikaans, Cajun and other assorted pidgin languages. But I'd like to see some surviving pidgin languages. Maybe a pidgin variation of German or Russian.

[Enigmajones]

Languages. Sorry for the misspell.

[The Ubbergeek]

Originally Posted by Enigmajones

Now I know about Afrikaans, Cajun and other assorted pidgin languages. But I'd like to see some surviving pidgin languages. Maybe a pidgin variation of German or Russian.

Afrikaan is not a pidgin, its a variety of dutch or a derivated language from DUtch, and Cajun french is a 'national' variety of french, like NZ english.

[Enigmajones]

Originally Posted by The Ubbergeek

Afrikaan is not a pidgin, its a variety of dutch or a derivated language from DUtch, and Cajun french is a 'national' variety of french, like NZ english.

I suppose I used the wrong word for it. I meant a language that while descended from one language changes from it to form a distinct identity.

[The Ubbergeek]

Originally Posted by Enigmajones

I suppose I used the wrong word for it. I meant a language that while descended from one language changes from it to form a distinct identity.

Créoles is closer for somes, as they are more 'united', 'workeable' languages of their own. Middle-Modern English may have started life as one.

[carlton_bach]

Originally Posted by Enigmajones

I suppose I used the wrong word for it. I meant a language that while descended from one language changes from it to form a distinct identity.

In many colonial settings, this is quite common. Linguists are increasingly no longer prepared to talk about English, but about Englishes, varieties of the same substrate that have changed into quite distinct, if still mutually intrelligible, forms. African French and South American Spanish seems to have undergone similar changes (though the French Academie was reluctant to so acknowledge, my Senegalese neighbour sounded nothing like my French teacher).

Of course the question is where you draw the line between descent from a language and development out of a language group or dialect cline. All Romance languages can be thought of as Latin's "bastard children" or pidgins, but IMO it makes more sense to think of them as distinct evolutions from a vulgar Latin dialect group that had enough variety in it to accommodate the lot.

Does anyone know about diaspora or Taiwanese Chinese vs. PRC Chinese?

[The Ubbergeek]

Originally Posted by carlton_bach

In many colonial settings, this is quite common. Linguists are increasingly no longer prepared to talk about English, but about Englishes, varieties of the same substrate that have changed into quite distinct, if still mutually intrelligible, forms. African French and South American Spanish seems to have undergone similar changes (though the French Academie was reluctant to so acknowledge, my Senegalese neighbour sounded nothing like my French teacher).

Of course the question is where you draw the line between descent from a language and development out of a language group or dialect cline. All Romance languages can be thought of as Latin's "bastard children" or pidgins, but IMO it makes more sense to think of them as distinct evolutions from a vulgar Latin dialect group that had enough variety in it to accommodate the lot.

Does anyone know about diaspora or Taiwanese Chinese vs. PRC Chinese?

Amusing question, because we had a thread in Chat about a guy wanting indeed some thing on Taiwanese Chinese slang.

In french btw for the first thing, I think 'national X' is one way to say it. Or -isms, like Canadianisms, for regionalisms.

[altwere]

pidgen languages are contact languages. They remain as long as they are not the first language of any group. When a pidgen becomes the common language of a comunity which has a next generation the lanuage morphs into a crealo language. Crealo's have a regular gramer and a more complex vocabulary.
Sorry my spell checker died

[Color-Copycat]

The first wave of diaspora Chinese spoke mainly Cantonese.

Unsure about your question regarding Taiwan and the PRC. They both speak Mandarin in an official capacity (difference being Traditional as opposed to Simplified script), and the local dialects are completely different (except for Hakka, I think).

[Turquoise Blue]

Originally Posted by Enigmajones

Now I know about Afrikaans, Cajun and other assorted pidgin languages. But I'd like to see some surviving pidgin languages. Maybe a pidgin variation of German or Russian.

Cajun French is a dialect. Afrikaans is a creole.

[EternalCynic]

Originally Posted by Color-Copycat

The first wave of diaspora Chinese spoke mainly Cantonese.

Unsure about your question regarding Taiwan and the PRC. They both speak Mandarin in an official capacity (difference being Traditional as opposed to Simplified script), and the local dialects are completely different (except for Hakka, I think).

Both Taiwan and the mainland use a formalized Beijing Mandarin as the official spoken language. Yet vernacular dialects are so diverse that it's sometimes said that villagers ten miles apart can't speak to each other. The most common vernacular dialects in Taiwan are Minnan and Hakka, both of which are spoken in parts of Fujian and Guangdong where most Taiwanese came from.

[Color-Copycat]

Huh... I never knew mainlanders could understand regular old Taiwanese. The ones I've met have claimed it's unintelligible to them (even the ones from Fujian province).

[EternalCynic]

Originally Posted by Color-Copycat

Huh... I never knew mainlanders could understand regular old Taiwanese. The ones I've met have claimed it's unintelligible to them (even the ones from Fujian province).

Minnan/Hoklo a.k.a. Taiwanese is spoken in coastal southern Fujian. Other parts of the province use a different variant of Min Chinese, or Hakka which is a different language altogether. It's through this channel that the PRC wishes to increase cultural interactions with Taiwan.

[Color-Copycat]

Ah... maybe the mainlanders I was talking to just found me annoying and wanted me to shut up with a simple "I don't understand you, go away".

[EternalCynic]

There's a tendency in China to "mind your own business", and if someone intrudes on someone else's personal space without an obvious reason (especially if you're a clear outsider), it could be taken with offence.

[Color-Copycat]

This was in the States, but point taken. Maybe my Taiwanese is just shittier than I'd like to admit. Either that or they spoke one of the other Fujianese dialects.

[Dan1988]

Originally Posted by Enigmajones

Now I know about Afrikaans, Cajun and other assorted pidgin languages. But I'd like to see some surviving pidgin languages. Maybe a pidgin variation of German or Russian.

Cajun French is not a pidgin - it's just a localized version of Acadian French, which in turn is archaic compared to Modern French.

As for pidgin Russian - the one historical one I know of that would be interesting to see survive a glorious existence into now is Russenorsk - essentially, a pidgin language combining both Russian and Norwegian elements.

[The Ubbergeek]

Originally Posted by Dan1988

Cajun French is not a pidgin - it's just a localized version of Acadian French, which in turn is archaic compared to Modern French.

As for pidgin Russian - the one historical one I know of that would be interesting to see survive a glorious existence into now is Russenorsk - essentially, a pidgin language combining both Russian and Norwegian elements.

the 'Pomors'(?) russians of the White Sea may make a trade pidgin with natives around, maybe?

[Archdevil]

On the Dutch Antilles, Papiamento is a pidgin originating from Portugese Creole, later influenced by Dutch (and maybe also Jewish Portugese fleeing from Brazil).

If you want more pidgin languages, you'd need similar scenarios.

[pa_dutch]

Originally Posted by Enigmajones

Now I know about Afrikaans, Cajun and other assorted pidgin languages. But I'd like to see some surviving pidgin languages. Maybe a pidgin variation of German or Russian.

It's not a pidgin, but Pennsylvania Dutch (or as linguists call it, Pennsylvania German) is a German equivalent of Cajun French. Immigrants from the Rhineland region settled the Pennsylvania countryside in such great numbers that their language remained in common use up until the great wave of anti-German backlash surrounding the two world wars. Their dialect diverged from its original form due to isolation from the motherland, as well as contact with English speakers and to a much lesser extent, Native Americans. It developed its own distinctive vocabulary - The Pennsylvania German term for Pennsylvania is "Pennsilfaani," while standard German simply uses the English name. Today only the Amish, some Mennonites, scattered elderly, and interested preservationists continue its legacy.