The 12:08 service to...

[Bureaucromancer]

Certainly being in pro mode (which despite the name IS just a name, no fee attached) makes a big difference.

[FDW]

Originally Posted by Devvy

Nope....does it make a big difference?

Yeah, since you can get more tools for mapmaking and it's free.

[Devvy]

Cheers for the pointers. Rage over

For people who are interested, the 12:08 timeline London Underground Map (overlaid on Google Maps via Scribble)

http://www.scribblemaps.com/maps/view/DevLU86

[El Pip]

Originally Posted by Devvy

Cheers for the pointers. Rage over

For people who are interested, the 12:08 timeline London Underground Map (overlaid on Google Maps via Scribble)

http://www.scribblemaps.com/maps/view/DevLU86

Does look good, so good I may have to use this idea myself in the future.

Out of interest how long did all that take?

[FDW]

Originally Posted by El Pip

Does look good, so good I may have to use this idea myself in the future.

Out of interest how long did all that take?

Judging by the number of lines and depending on the zoom used to draw them, at least a couple of hours, I'd imagine. Though, I'd like some kind of comparison to OTL at this point though so I can make sense of it.

[Devvy]

Yeah, took somewhere around 90 minutes.

Suggestions based on experience - regularly save (it seems to crash more when theres loads of unsaved stuff done) and don't use the undo button or ctrl-z (use the eraser or move the points).

FDW - as the map doesn't contain the (non-London Underground) BR lines such as Thameslink, there's not a lot of difference. The only real difference is the Fleet Line (which became the Jubilee Line OTL). OTL, Phase 1 of it's construction only did the northern half from the terminus at Stanmore down to Charing Cross. When it was eventually extended, Charing Cross was cut and the line went from Green Park to Westminster, Waterloo, Canada Water, Canary Wharf, North Greenwich, Canning Town, West Ham, Stratford (and breathe!).

In this TL, phases 1 and 2 of construction got done at the start, so the Fleet Line runs from Stanmore to central London, before terminating at Fenchurch Street. Currently in the TL, the work is on to extend it via Canary Wharf and North Greenwich.

Over the course of the next week, I might try to add in the NSE lines in thick lines so the differences are more obvious, because the two Thameslink lines in this TL will make a huge difference to public transport in London (and it'll make it easier for me to judge where capacity constraints are now in this TL!).

[Bureaucromancer]

You might find this helpful (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11334765/London.rar). I did it in Google Earth so it might have some trouble importing into Google Maps or Scribble Maps. The underground sections aren't perfectly accurate but it certainly give a strategic overview if you can get it into a program you like. It's divided by operator (beyond the obvious separate files for underground, national and light rail (I've also got files floating around for expansion proposals which add a lot more light rail, and when I have it all imported these display as folders rather than separate files; hence the light rail separation for what's really a pretty small network). In any case, the only other big note is that the cutoff points for national rail are pretty arbitrary (though they are based on where TfL's maps cut off so are decent at showing Oyster service coverage).

All in all its a shame that Quantum GIS is so clunky or I'd probably drop Scribble Maps and use that... Maybe I can convince work to give me a home copy of some ESRI stuff.

PS: One thing that is bugging me in Scribble Maps, has anyone found a scrolling hotkey or something else to solve my problem? Basically I'm being driven nuts because it seems to force me to jump back to the drag tool to scroll, which obviously messes with my workflow, and no other GIS or GIS like package makes me do.

[Geordie]

Very good, as always Devvy.

Just a quick clarification about your OHLE of the Waterloo-Woking-Basingstoke-Southampton and points onward:

Do you envisage the long distance trains (running beyond Basingstoke) as overhead, with the slower trains (out as far as Alton and Basingstoke) on the third rail?

Sorry if it should be clear, but I'm pretty sleep deprived at the minute, and can't quite process the information...

[Rebel Centurion]

How is the train network in Wales doing in this time line? have some of the lines that where closed OTL being saved. And speaking from a strict rolling stock point of view have are the pacers in existance or is it just sprinters for local services?.

[Devvy]

Originally Posted by Rebel Centurion

How is the train network in Wales doing in this time line? have some of the lines that where closed OTL being saved. And speaking from a strict rolling stock point of view have are the pacers in existance or is it just sprinters for local services?.

South Wales (and Cardiff in particular) is something I keep meaning to do a Spotlight on, but never quite get round to it. I'd imagine the pacers are implemented just as OTL (sorry!), and some more of the Valley lines are still running. The Intercity service is running through Newport, Cardiff and terminating at Swansea.

Originally Posted by Geordie

Very good, as always Devvy.

Just a quick clarification about your OHLE of the Waterloo-Woking-Basingstoke-Southampton and points onward:

Do you envisage the long distance trains (running beyond Basingstoke) as overhead, with the slower trains (out as far as Alton and Basingstoke) on the third rail?

Sorry if it should be clear, but I'm pretty sleep deprived at the minute, and can't quite process the information...

Haha - thanks for the comments

Right, the Alton Line (which still runs to Winchester in this TL), Portsmouth Direct Line and the SWML from Waterloo to Pirbright Junction (where the Alton Line branches off) was electrified as third rail in the interwar years, so that's still there. I'm going to make a flying assumption that all 4 of the quadruple track from Pirbright Junction to Waterloo were electrified, which allows Portsmouth / Alton services to run as express to Waterloo (as they do, at least these days, in OTL).

Although I'm still tying down the details for when I write a Spotlight on the South Coast to cover the SWML, I'd imagine that the third rail that exists stays there. OHLE would be installed at least on Southampton - Basingstoke - Woking to allow dual voltage trains to run the entire distance. Later OHLE extensions from Southampton to Bournemouth and Weymouth. While I want to modernise the West of England main line to Exeter, realistically there's going to be no money to do it at the moment. We'll have to suffice with diesel hauled trains on the un-mangled dual track all the way down.

Between Woking and Waterloo, I'm pondering the middle 2 fast tracks being electrified with OHLE (with third rail remaining there as well until Alton and Portsmouth lines are converted to OHLE). Not sure on that yet - personally I think it may remain being third rail, and requiring dual voltage stock. I think the 8-track approaching Waterloo would be a massive headache to electrify with OHLE, because of the width and the fact that most of the signals are mounted over the tracks. Think Paddington, but worse - and if I remember right, the Ladbroke Grove rail crash in OTL blamed problems with being able to see the signals because of the angle of the sun and the poor visibility of the signals (partly due to the mass OHLE).

This means we don't butterfly away the BR Class 442, as I think those units look cool (they'll run London - Woking - Alton - Winchester and London - Woking - Guildford - Portsmouth express trains).

[Geordie]

Originally Posted by Devvy

I'd imagine the pacers are implemented just as OTL (sorry!)

Firstly, as somebody who has spent twenty of his twenty-four years near those abortions on wheels, can I have a moment to rage, please?

Originally Posted by Devvy

Right, the Alton Line (which still runs to Winchester in this TL), Portsmouth Direct Line and the SWML from Waterloo to Pirbright Junction (where the Alton Line branches off) was electrified as third rail in the interwar years, so that's still there. I'm going to make a flying assumption that all 4 of the quadruple track from Pirbright Junction to Waterloo were electrified, which allows Portsmouth / Alton services to run as express to Waterloo (as they do, at least these days, in OTL).

Although I'm still tying down the details for when I write a Spotlight on the South Coast to cover the SWML, I'd imagine that the third rail that exists stays there. OHLE would be installed at least on Southampton - Basingstoke - Woking to allow dual voltage trains to run the entire distance. Later OHLE extensions from Southampton to Bournemouth and Weymouth. While I want to modernise the West of England main line to Exeter, realistically there's going to be no money to do it at the moment. We'll have to suffice with diesel hauled trains on the un-mangled dual track all the way down.

Between Woking and Waterloo, I'm pondering the middle 2 fast tracks being electrified with OHLE (with third rail remaining there as well until Alton and Portsmouth lines are converted to OHLE). Not sure on that yet - personally I think it may remain being third rail, and requiring dual voltage stock. I think the 8-track approaching Waterloo would be a massive headache to electrify with OHLE, because of the width and the fact that most of the signals are mounted over the tracks. Think Paddington, but worse - and if I remember right, the Ladbroke Grove rail crash in OTL blamed problems with being able to see the signals because of the angle of the sun and the poor visibility of the signals (partly due to the mass OHLE).

This means we don't butterfly away the BR Class 442, as I think those units look cool (they'll run London - Woking - Alton - Winchester and London - Woking - Guildford - Portsmouth express trains).

I'd forgotten that Alton-Winchester survived in TTL. I think dual voltage might be a necessity really, even if it's not ideal. As well as the approaches to Waterloo being a massive headache, it should reduce construction costs, even if dual voltage multiple units eat up some of the savings.

Thanks for clearing that up, bit of a brain fart on my part.

[Devvy]

Originally Posted by Geordie

Firstly, as somebody who has spent twenty of his twenty-four years near those abortions on wheels, can I have a moment to rage, please?

Yeah sorry! But the increased amount of remaining railways to run will require cheap trains (the original proviso of the Pacers), so they'll still be around, trawling along the country lines.

Originally Posted by Geordie

I'd forgotten that Alton-Winchester survived in TTL. I think dual voltage might be a necessity really, even if it's not ideal. As well as the approaches to Waterloo being a massive headache, it should reduce construction costs, even if dual voltage multiple units eat up some of the savings.

Yeah, I think dual voltage units will probably be used at least to start with. Mass conversion of third rail of the SWML to OHLE will probably happen in the 00s, as third rail becomes increasingly outdated, especially as the train market supports OHLE 25khv as standard on new trains.

Originally Posted by Geordie

Thanks for clearing that up, bit of a brain fart on my part.

My pleasure! I'll end up doing a south coast/SWML Spotlight probably in the late 90s. And it'll have more detail then the other ones up to this point, mainly due to this is the area I live in, so I have more personal experience of the railway happenings in this area. And we are getting to a more modern point in the TL, so photos of stock at specific dates, details, and decent project writeups are a lot easier to get hold of and read.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

I don't know that much about British rail, but I really, really like this TL.

Thanks.

[Devvy]

Originally Posted by Bureaucromancer

You might find this helpful (http://dl.dropbox.com/u/11334765/London.rar). I did it in Google Earth so it might have some trouble importing into Google Maps or Scribble Maps. The underground sections aren't perfectly accurate but it certainly give a strategic overview if you can get it into a program you like. It's divided by operator (beyond the obvious separate files for underground, national and light rail (I've also got files floating around for expansion proposals which add a lot more light rail, and when I have it all imported these display as folders rather than separate files; hence the light rail separation for what's really a pretty small network). In any case, the only other big note is that the cutoff points for national rail are pretty arbitrary (though they are based on where TfL's maps cut off so are decent at showing Oyster service coverage).

All in all its a shame that Quantum GIS is so clunky or I'd probably drop Scribble Maps and use that... Maybe I can convince work to give me a home copy of some ESRI stuff.

PS: One thing that is bugging me in Scribble Maps, has anyone found a scrolling hotkey or something else to solve my problem? Basically I'm being driven nuts because it seems to force me to jump back to the drag tool to scroll, which obviously messes with my workflow, and no other GIS or GIS like package makes me do.

Back home now, and had a look at the KMLs (imported then into Google Earth). Nice - as you say there are a couple of inaccuracies on the Tube map, but overall nice! Cheers

In Scribble Maps, when you are in "line draw mode" or whatever, you can still press the button just above the zoom bar to move around the map. You can't click and drag which frustrates me, but the buttons above the zoom bar work to move the map without you having to change mode.

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

I don't know that much about British rail, but I really, really like this TL.

Thanks.

Thanks for the comments. If you've got any questions, being unfamiliar with BR, then fire away!



And also - 25,000 views now, I've just noticed! Thanks for reading all(including you anonymous people out there!).

[Geordie]

Originally Posted by Devvy

Yeah sorry! But the increased amount of remaining railways to run will require cheap trains (the original proviso of the Pacers), so they'll still be around, trawling along the country lines.

Well, it'll still a horrible thing, however cheap. I suppose they're slightly more bearable in their 2+2 seating configuration. I can just about remember the horrible bus seats, when it was Regional Railways.

Originally Posted by Devvy

Yeah, I think dual voltage units will probably be used at least to start with. Mass conversion of third rail of the SWML to OHLE will probably happen in the 00s, as third rail becomes increasingly outdated, especially as the train market supports OHLE 25khv as standard on new trains.
My pleasure! I'll end up doing a south coast/SWML Spotlight probably in the late 90s. And it'll have more detail then the other ones up to this point, mainly due to this is the area I live in, so I have more personal experience of the railway happenings in this area. And we are getting to a more modern point in the TL, so photos of stock at specific dates, details, and decent project writeups are a lot easier to get hold of and read.

Nice to have something outside of the North East (other than mainlines) I can comment on!

Living near Hook, and being without a car, I've become accustomed to the railways around Basingstoke over the last 18 months...

[JN1]

We've got to have Pacers. After all we need something to inflict on Iran.

[Devvy]

Originally Posted by Geordie

Well, it'll still a horrible thing, however cheap. I suppose they're slightly more bearable in their 2+2 seating configuration. I can just about remember the horrible bus seats, when it was Regional Railways.


Nice to have something outside of the North East (other than mainlines) I can comment on!

Living near Hook, and being without a car, I've become accustomed to the railways around Basingstoke over the last 18 months...

I can just about sitting on Regional Railways Pacers with bus seats in Yorkshire as well. Not pleasant. Especially as I used to ride on it into Harrogate, and the corner (approaching Harrogate from the south) on to the viaduct is very *very* tight, which led to extreme levels of wheel screech. Ouch.

On a side note, you're just up the road - I'm only in Aldershot (and am occasionally in Hook)!

Originally Posted by JN1

We've got to have Pacers. After all we need something to inflict on Iran.

"Cancel your nuclear programme, or receive more Pacers!"

[Geordie]

Originally Posted by Devvy

I can just about sitting on Regional Railways Pacers with bus seats in Yorkshire as well. Not pleasant. Especially as I used to ride on it into Harrogate, and the corner (approaching Harrogate from the south) on to the viaduct is very *very* tight, which led to extreme levels of wheel screech. Ouch.

If you've ever been over the bridges into Newcastle from East of Gateshead - Pelaw, Sunderland and our recently discussed Leamside line, you'll realise Harrogate doesn't have a monopoly on such curves. Ouch indeed.

Originally Posted by Devvy

On a side note, you're just up the road - I'm only in Aldershot (and am occasionally in Hook)!

Interesting. I suppose it can be described as a small world at times.

Originally Posted by Devvy

"Cancel your nuclear programme, or receive more Pacers!"

That is the best example of "Speak softly, and carry a big stick." I've ever come across!

[El Pip]

Originally Posted by Devvy

Yeah, I think dual voltage units will probably be used at least to start with. Mass conversion of third rail of the SWML to OHLE will probably happen in the 00s, as third rail becomes increasingly outdated, especially as the train market supports OHLE 25khv as standard on new trains.

Once again Electrification of the SWML, presumably this is without shutting the thing down for a few months so you can do it properly? I think that might make the OTL WCML job look like a cheap, efficient and frugal picnic!

[Devvy]

Originally Posted by El Pip

Once again Electrification of the SWML, presumably this is without shutting the thing down for a few months so you can do it properly? I think that might make the OTL WCML job look like a cheap, efficient and frugal picnic!

Quite...which is exactly why I haven't written anything "proper" about it yet. What happened with the OTL ECML electrification out of interest - was it closed for months to do the works, or rolling closures (if you know!)? That was in the late 1980s, so would be an interesting comparison to make, being a major main line and all.

The only thing I have reasonably definite in my mind is extending electrification from Woking to Southampton, then on to Bournemouth and Weymouth at a slightly later date. Dual voltage trains to run into Waterloo due to the difficulties around Waterloo, cost and delays incurred in putting OHLE on the way in. With the trains being dual voltage anyway, it's something you can easily take chunk by chunk, moving the conversion point further and further towards Waterloo. Means trains can run at 125mph rather then 100mph (max allowed on third rail systems) as well, so a little bit faster.

Originally Posted by Geordie

If you've ever been over the bridges into Newcastle from East of Gateshead - Pelaw, Sunderland and our recently discussed Leamside line, you'll realise Harrogate doesn't have a monopoly on such curves. Ouch indeed.

Indeed - it's just the only tight curves I have experience on. I've only been to Newcastle once, that was via train on my way from London to Edinburgh last year. I didn't get off the train...so very much a flying visit.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

In June 2011, Peter Dearman of Network Rail suggested that the third-rail network will need to be converted into overhead power lines in the future. He stated, "Although the top speed is 100mph, the trains cannot go over 80mph well and 25% of power is lost from heat". Agreeing that conversion would be expensive, he also said that the third-rail network is at its limit of its power capability of power (especially as trains become more advanced in technology).

PS. OHLE is a hell of a lot more efficient then third rail it would seem....