Splinters - Rommel Dies At Alam Halfa

[BlairWitch749]

please have guderian flown out before the army collapses (can he be recouping at a main hospital in tripoli or something?) he is a very interesting POV character for the story to continue around

[Cymraeg]

That's what's fascinating me more and more Hyperion - we've now got Rommel dead, so no Normandy 44 strategy, Guderian an invalid POW, so no rational german tank production strategy and no Kesselring, so no OTL Italian campaign. Oh and 6th Panzer won't be participating in Winter Storm. Butterflies a-plenty!

[Cymraeg]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

please have guderian flown out before the army collapses (can he be recouping at a main hospital in tripoli or something?) he is a very interesting POV character for the story to continue around

I did think about that, but then I thought that the flight might have killed him and I've become quite fond of the bad-tempered old bugger. I still wonder what he left out of Panzer Leader though.

[Gridley]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

I know Rommel is dead in this timeline, but with Kesselring out of the picture, might the Germans decide to pull back while they can and reinforce their positions closer to the Italian Alps?

Politically infeasible until/unless Italy flips sides.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Cymraeg

I did think about that, but then I thought that the flight might have killed him and I've become quite fond of the bad-tempered old bugger. I still wonder what he left out of Panzer Leader though.

have him shipped back on a warship or something... keep him in the story even if it's just for the lulz

it would be fun to have him replace halder when he recovers

Hitler: I demand the 6th army remain at stalingrad, we will make a supply corridor to them, they must fight to the last man
HG: Umm my fuhrer I don't think that is such a good idea
Hitler: What why not
HG: Well you know, Egypt, Panzer Army Africa surrenders we lose a lot of experienced personel and officers and lose the campaign... you remember?
Hitler: Oh that... well that only happened because you fell ill, everything was going great before then
HG: I don't think so, the front was in shambles before I got there, and standing in place didn't do us any favors
Hitler: I get the feeling we have had this discussion before
HG: Yea, outside Moscow December 1941, same sort of thing loss of experienced personal and officers, loss of equipment, we where only saved by the Russians not properly massing their forces
Hitler: How did I handle that?
HG: You fired me and repeated the process several more times to the point where it's starting to look like we might lose the war
Hitler: I see... well I'll tell you what, let's order the 6th army to stay at stalingrad, and if they are destroyed and all of them die in the city or in siberian prison camps I owe you a diet coke



more seriously, if the front implodes completely now better to cancel 6th panzer's deployment and keep them in reserve along with a couple of infantry formations to shore up benny (they would have a good window anyway... nobody is invading sicily in winter I don't think)

that still leaves Germany with the ability to concentrate a fairly large battle group (since they won't have the tunisian debacle) to try and free the 6th army (assuming Hitler turns down Paulus' request to breakout right away)

[trekchu]

We might have Paulus try to seize the opportunity and make the request earlier. If he and HG/whoever cite Egypt as an example the Austrian might listen and one my uncles might live.

[Gridley]

Originally Posted by trekchu

We might have Paulus try to seize the opportunity and make the request earlier. If he and HG/whoever cite Egypt as an example the Austrian might listen and one my uncles might live.

Or, heck, Paulus might look at Egypt and say $$%! it, I'm not committing suicide OR dying in a Soviet camp. I'm leaving, and I'm taking my army with me!

"Order to all units: henceforth the city formerly known as known as 'Kiev' is to be referred to on all maps and orders as 'Stalingrad.' The city formerly known as 'Stalingrad' is to be referred to as 'Springfield.' In accordance with orders from High Command, all units are to take positions to defend Stalingrad..."

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Gridley

Or, heck, Paulus might look at Egypt and say $$%! it, I'm not committing suicide OR dying in a Soviet camp. I'm leaving, and I'm taking my army with me!

"Order to all units: henceforth the city formerly known as known as 'Kiev' is to be referred to on all maps and orders as 'Stalingrad.' The city formerly known as 'Stalingrad' is to be referred to as 'Springfield.' In accordance with orders from High Command, all units are to take positions to defend Stalingrad..."

The army despite being bloodied still had 20 big divisions in it when it was first encircled. There was no particular reason (logistically or capability wise) they couldn't mass the XVI panzer corps and a couple of their good infantry divisions like the 44th on the southwest corner of the kessel; broken out and made like hell for kotelnikovo and eventually rostov whilst holding open a corridor for army group a to pull back; hell if paulus did this right away he could have pinched off some of the soviet spearheads in conjunction with relieving forces coming from the north and west (6th and 11th panzer)

[MerryPrankster]

Wow, if the butterflies lead to a Stalingrad breakout or major issues in Germany itself, things are going to get interesting.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Wow, if the butterflies lead to a Stalingrad breakout or major issues in Germany itself, things are going to get interesting.

especially if 6th panzer can be pulled back and retained in italy for defensive purposes and the axis for all intents gives up on africa

that would still leave the germans with the leibstandarte, 24th panzer, 10th panzer, hg panzer, 16th panzer grenadier, 2nd parachute, 11th panzer 336th infantry and a couple of other formations (plus considerable LW assets, especially transport not being soaked up in tunisia) to form a large battle group to either rescue paulus or possible participate in a potential backhand blow if he pulls back immediately

[Gridley]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

especially if 6th panzer can be pulled back and retained in italy for defensive purposes and the axis for all intents gives up on africa

that would still leave the germans with the leibstandarte, 24th panzer, 10th panzer, hg panzer, 16th panzer grenadier, 2nd parachute, 11th panzer 336th infantry and a couple of other formations (plus considerable LW assets, especially transport not being soaked up in tunisia) to form a large battle group to either rescue paulus or possible participate in a potential backhand blow if he pulls back immediately

(Nod) This is starting to look like one of those "The Germans do better by first doing worse" situations. :-}

Personally, I find such things interesting and amusing.

[El Pip]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Wow, if the butterflies lead to a Stalingrad breakout or major issues in Germany itself, things are going to get interesting.

If things go well enough around Stalingrad Germany may even find itself fully occupied by the Allies rather than divided. Which would be a vast improvement for all involved.

[Obfuscated]

Originally Posted by Gridley

(Nod) This is starting to look like one of those "The Germans do better by first doing worse" situations. :-}

Personally, I find such things interesting and amusing.

Unless they do well enough that Hiroshima and Nagashima get butterflied.
Then their score counter flips into the negative.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Gridley

(Nod) This is starting to look like one of those "The Germans do better by first doing worse" situations. :-}

Personally, I find such things interesting and amusing.

it's hit or miss

in the desert god (written by myself and OKH_1946) we had the 8th army similarly gobble up the panzer army africa prior to torch thereby preventing the large scale reinforcement into Tunisia... Hitler still ordered the 6th army to stay, and manstein's forces (enlarged as I suggested here) broke into the city; however, in dirving all the way to the city they pulled themselves out of position and got annihilated in operation little saturn

so it can certainly work the other way if paulus is nailed to the city

[Cymraeg]

0200 Hours 2nd October 1942, Führerhauptquartier Wehrwolf, Ukraine
When the staff officer arrived at Zietzler’s office he was running, and by the look on his face he did not have good news. “Sir, you need to see this at once,” the signals captain gasped as he held out a message flimsy. “It’s from Egypt.”

Zietzler, who was horribly tired after a very long day, took the message with a frown on his face and more than a squirrel of worry in his stomach. The last message they’d received had been hours ago – and it hadn’t been a good one. Then he looked down at the message and his heart seemed to stop. “My god,” he breathed. “My god.”

Kesselring had surrendered what had remained of Panzerarmee Afrika. A German Field Marshall had surrendered a German army. These were things that had never happened before. No German Field Marshall had ever surrendered before. No German Army had ever surrendered before. The shock was literally paralysing. The shame was just as bad.

At the same time he could understand the reasons why Kesselring had done what he had – from all accounts the situation had been militarily catastrophic. But still… Oh my god. Hitler would have to be told. Well, at least he wasn’t going to be the man to do it. He didn’t envy Jodl the job. Well. Time to see how the Fuhrer reacted to disastrous news. He had a sneaking feeling that it wouldn’t be good.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Cymraeg

0200 Hours 2nd October 1942, Führerhauptquartier Wehrwolf, Ukraine
When the staff officer arrived at Zietzler’s office he was running, and by the look on his face he did not have good news. “Sir, you need to see this at once,” the signals captain gasped as he held out a message flimsy. “It’s from Egypt.”

Zietzler, who was horribly tired after a very long day, took the message with a frown on his face and more than a squirrel of worry in his stomach. The last message they’d received had been hours ago – and it hadn’t been a good one. Then he looked down at the message and his heart seemed to stop. “My god,” he breathed. “My god.”

Kesselring had surrendered what had remained of Panzerarmee Afrika. A German Field Marshall had surrendered a German army. These were things that had never happened before. No German Field Marshall had ever surrendered before. No German Army had ever surrendered before. The shock was literally paralysing. The shame was just as bad.

At the same time he could understand the reasons why Kesselring had done what he had – from all accounts the situation had been militarily catastrophic. But still… Oh my god. He was going to have to tell Hitler what had happened. He flinched at the thought but then he forced himself to stand. Well. Time to see how the Fuhrer reacted to disastrous news. He had a sneaking feeling that it wouldn’t be good.

the nice thing for Zietzler is that he doesn't have to tell Hitler (suggested retcon for historical accuracy here)... africa is under the command purview of the OKW, Zietzler can dump this problem on Jodl or Keitel and wash his hands of it and watch the bastards squirm

[Cymraeg]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

the nice thing for Zietzler is that he doesn't have to tell Hitler (suggested retcon for historical accuracy here)... africa is under the command purview of the OKW, Zietzler can dump this problem on Jodl or Keitel and wash his hands of it and watch the bastards squirm

Damn, you're right. One retcon coming right up.

[Cymraeg]

0559 Hours, 2nd October, London
The announcer looked at the lights on the wall and permitted himself a small sip of water as the seconds counted down. He needed to have a good steady voice for this broadcast. It would never do to get all excited and gabble it out.

Right. 6am exactly. The light flashed red and then he started to read.

“This is the BBC Home and Forces programme. This is Bruce Belfrage. The Axis forces in the Western Desert, after almost four days and nights of ceaseless attacks by our land and air forces, have surrendered after being surrounded. The Axis commander, Field Marshall Kesselring, formally surrendered his forces to General Montgomery in the early hours of the morning, Egyptian time, ending what General Montgomery has named the Battle of El Alamein.

“The Prime Minister, Mr Churchill, is to make a statement on the battle in the House of Commons this morning.

“Such is the scale of the victory by our forces that the Axis now has very little strength remaining in Egypt, and their few remaining units are now fleeing in disorder towards the Libyan border.”

[Some Bloke]

What axis forces are left in Libya? How long will it take to mop up?
I doubt they'd be able to mount any significant resistance, much less try to break into Tunisia.

[Cymraeg]

0900 Hours, 2nd October 1942, Coast Road to Alexandria
Well, so far he was closer to the Nile than he would ever have gotten otherwise, Bayerlein thought wryly as the truck sped Eastwards. He was one of the lucky ones, who were being driven instead of walking. It seemed that he was senior enough and injured enough to be sent to hospital.

Guderian at least had been sent by ambulance – the British had been very quick and very careful about that – and Kesselring had been sent by staff car to have lunch with Montgomery himself. He permitted himself a small smile. It had shades of Marlborough and Tallard at Blenheim.

The smile faded as he remembered the long lines of German and Italian troops being disarmed and marched Eastwards. Panzerarmee Afrika was gone. He never thought that he’d seen anything like that. He’d hoped that it could never happen. He’d been wrong.

He looked out of the back of the truck. He could see palm trees here and there. Ah, Alexandria. He’d kill for an ice-cold lager right now.