Splinters - Rommel Dies At Alam Halfa

[DuQuense]

this is all assuming the British can pick up on the operation which is dependent on how much secrecy Kesselring et all wrap the operation in (ie land line telephones and couriers only, radio/enigma silence etc... the Germans did this twice in 1942; for elements of the gazalla offensive which came as a complete surprise; and the channel dash which was also a surprise)

Kesselring will have to Coordinate this operation with the Italians.
Given that the British at the time, were decoding the Italian messages faster that the Italians were, I doubt the possibility of keeping any such operation secret.

?How long would it take to desert proof a Tank? ?Who has the parts necessary, and available? This will have a affect on how many Tanks Guderian would have available.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by DuQuense

Kesselring will have to Coordinate this operation with the Italians.
Given that the British at the time, were decoding the Italian messages faster that the Italians were, I doubt the possibility of keeping any such operation secret.

?How long would it take to desert proof a Tank? ?Who has the parts necessary, and available? This will have a affect on how many Tanks Guderian would have available.

italian ciphers where unbreakable; they used one time pad's of the sort that were very popular with the kgb in the 70's and 80's (tom clancy's red rabbit, has an excellent explaination of how they work)... the british only started cracking the italians when the germans started forcing them to use enigma

the channel dash was kept secret, as was the rebound from crusader and the gazalla offensive itself (all within this time period)... so it's certainly not asb

there's painting (although i assume this could be done in naples or en route to save time, installing custom air filters for the engine, some modification for the suspension (which is going to go through endless soft sands; plus some optics and gunnery exercises for the crew (since the desert largely doesn't have any landmarks, the gunners and commanders had to be given special courses on distance estimating and desert target aquisition)... 2-3 days per tank 36 hours of shop labor 48-72 hours of crew familiarization and training (normally it would be a lot more; but the situation is urgent, and 6th panzer's men are highly experienced tankers anyway)

[DuQuense]

italian ciphers where unbreakable; they used one time pad's of the sort that were very popular with the kgb in the 70's and 80's (tom clancy's red rabbit, has an excellent explaination of how they work)... the british only started cracking the italians when the germans started forcing them to use enigma

Sorry
I know the British broke into the Italian Embassy in Egypt in the early 40's and stole a copy of the Diplomatic Code book.
Which is where the decoding faster than the Italians comes from. I assumed this allowed the British to be able to decode the military codes from clues in the diplomatic messages.
However if there is any diplomatic messages about this, than my point stands.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

italian ciphers where unbreakable; they used one time pad's of the sort that were very popular with the kgb in the 70's and 80's (tom clancy's red rabbit, has an excellent explaination of how they work)... the british only started cracking the italians when the germans started forcing them to use enigma

the channel dash was kept secret, as was the rebound from crusader and the gazalla offensive itself (all within this time period)... so it's certainly not asb

there's painting (although i assume this could be done in naples or en route to save time, installing custom air filters for the engine, some modification for the suspension (which is going to go through endless soft sands; plus some optics and gunnery exercises for the crew (since the desert largely doesn't have any landmarks, the gunners and commanders had to be given special courses on distance estimating and desert target aquisition)... 2-3 days per tank 36 hours of shop labor 48-72 hours of crew familiarization and training (normally it would be a lot more; but the situation is urgent, and 6th panzer's men are highly experienced tankers anyway)

Those figures seem quite reasonable for the base depots, but how long will it take the (already busy) engineers at Tobruk? There isnt much point in feeding the division in in penny-packets as they get desertified (is that a word? It should be..., so how long before a sensible sized formation is ready. And of course thats assuming the RAF doesnt pay a friendly visit or two to the maintenance depots in the meantime. Intelligence or no, once most of the RM heavy units plus a convoy start hanging around Tobruk, the British are going to notice.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

Those figures seem quite reasonable for the base depots, but how long will it take the (already busy) engineers at Tobruk? There isnt much point in feeding the division in in penny-packets as they get desertified (is that a word? It should be..., so how long before a sensible sized formation is ready. And of course thats assuming the RAF doesnt pay a friendly visit or two to the maintenance depots in the meantime. Intelligence or no, once most of the RM heavy units plus a convoy start hanging around Tobruk, the British are going to notice.

the 2 battalions with 72 weapons capable of knocking out allied tanks from 1200 meters plus is good for delaying so the rest of the division can be landed and formed up (plus it gives Guderian vital air defense assets)

the 11th panzer regiment is a BIG formation; it has 160 panzer 4's... this is twice the tonnage of when 5th light (sic sic 21st panzer) was landed in 1941; 6th panzer also has 2 full strength panzer grenadier regiments (including 2 battalions in half tracks) plus a bunch of attached stuff (including the stuggs and 88s I mentioned)... it was the 2nd largest division in the army in this point (behind the leibstandarte)... it's total strength was between 14 and 15 thousand men

realisticly it would take a while to land and build up such a big formation just through tripoli; they would have to be split up between tripoli, bengahzi, tunis and bizertte... that would probably allow them to build up at brega ready for battle within 15-20 days

[Hyperion]

Originally Posted by BlairWitch749

the 2 battalions with 72 weapons capable of knocking out allied tanks from 1200 meters plus is good for delaying so the rest of the division can be landed and formed up (plus it gives Guderian vital air defense assets)

the 11th panzer regiment is a BIG formation; it has 160 panzer 4's... this is twice the tonnage of when 5th light (sic sic 21st panzer) was landed in 1941; 6th panzer also has 2 full strength panzer grenadier regiments (including 2 battalions in half tracks) plus a bunch of attached stuff (including the stuggs and 88s I mentioned)... it was the 2nd largest division in the army in this point (behind the leibstandarte)... it's total strength was between 14 and 15 thousand men

realisticly it would take a while to land and build up such a big formation just through tripoli; they would have to be split up between tripoli, bengahzi, tunis and bizertte... that would probably allow them to build up at brega ready for battle within 15-20 days

The division itself may be a good force, but from everything I've seen, shoving the entire division into Tobruk will be a logistical bitch/bottleneck.

That and as mentioned and seen previously, all that firepower isn't going to do jack if the RAF shows up, or if Cunningham sends ships to bombard the port at some point.

[BlairWitch749]

Originally Posted by Hyperion

The division itself may be a good force, but from everything I've seen, shoving the entire division into Tobruk will be a logistical bitch/bottleneck.

That and as mentioned and seen previously, all that firepower isn't going to do jack if the RAF shows up, or if Cunningham sends ships to bombard the port at some point.

you simply can't land the whole division at toburk it's like forcing a bucket of water through a straw it would take over 30 days with no disruption... unloading just the stugg's and 88's without loss would be a considerable victory and reinforcement for guderian

the panzer regiment and the infantry regiments would have to be landed at tripoli and other safer ports

you could maybe switch the engineer battalion or recon battalion or one of the half track battalions instead of the stuggs and 88's at toburk; but i think those two units would provide the most immediate effect to Guderian's defensive option and the delay they could help cause is absolutely vital to allowing the rest of the division to mass and desert proof their vehicles

[NORGCO]

So no-one else thinks the submarine sinking the tanker at the end of the last post was supposed to be the start of the destruction of some part of the new panzer division that was sent to Tobruk against the advice that that was too damn risky?


The way I saw the story going was Guderian demands the division go to Tobruk and Keselring says that's dangerous. Warning is ignored by the G man who repeats his demand, and Keselring caves and agrees to sending the ships to an inadequate port that lacks the maintenance facilities to desert adapt the tanks. Also the ships are far more likely to be sunk.

Then we get a story part where a British submare sinks a tanker and the Captain says “New course: 010 degrees. Let’s go hunting gentlemen."

I read that as the authors way of saying the gamble of sending the tanks to Tobruk had gone badly wrong and the reinforcements are at the bottom of the Mediterranean now.

I take it no one else sees it that way?

[Astrodragon]

There are limits to what one sub can sink, of course, but it does beg the question of what this will do to the morale and deciciveness of the RM with regard to the convoy and covering unloading operations.

[Tyg]

I don't think there's really much choice in the matter of having the RM sortie to escort those reinforcements and supplies. If they are not escorted, a large share of them may be lost, carrying near-irreplaceable men, equipment, and supplies. Given the precariousness of Guderian's position, that likely means a great retreat. The problem with that is the weakness of the Axis forces in Africa, which suggests the dangerous possibility of retreat becoming a rout back to Tripoli. If the Axis are cleared from North Africa, the RM will not serve any significant purpose anyway, save as targets for Allied bombing or harbor strikes.

What would they be holding the RM in reserve for anyway? If they lose in Africa, attacking Malta isn't going to serve much of a purpose, and the Allies won't be limited in air cover in the central Mediterranean.

Am I missing something?

[Cymraeg]

0930 Hours,ours Hours September 1942, HQ, Panzerarmee Afrika
Hans von Luck looked terrible, Guderian thought as he looked at the man. He was dusty, visibly exhausted and seemed to be limping slightly, which made him wonder if the man had recovered properly from the wound that he’d received months before.

He certainly did not look happy about his assignment, although Guderian had to admit that if he was in von Luck’s shoes he’d be feeling the same way. To make matters worse his objective had changed. The previous night the Australians had attacked the 164th Division with a massive concentration of artillery, followed by an infantry attack. They’d punched a hole and then swung North, seizing a strong position along the railway line. They were now within range of the road – and beyond that the sea, which meant that one of 164th Division’s brigades was in danger of being cut off.

Von Luck’s task was now therefore a simple one – to attack the Australian penetration and throw it back. The problem was that all he had was his own reconnaissance group of fast-moving but relatively light armour, along with the remnants of 15th Panzer and 90th Light. The latter two formations were still massively understrength, and had taken losses from the move up from their refitting positions near the Libyan border. All told the combined divisions totalled 35 Mark II panzers, 10 Mark IIIs and a solitary Mark IV.

Used properly it could be enough to stop the Australians, but it all depended on if they could hit them before they dug in their anti-tank guns. It was a gamble, but it was one that he had to take. He’d thought about adding 21st Panzer to von Luck’s force, but the supply of petrol was already very low and besides the last thing he needed was his panzer formations dashing about from one area to the other. No, he’d ordered 21st Panzer and the Centauro (or what was left of the latter) to find hull-down positions and wait for the British to attack out of their now-unified passageways through the minefields. Speaking of petrol, he’d been horrified to hear that the Proserpina tanker, which had been diverted from Benghazi to Tobruk, had been torpedoed and sunk just North of the port, taking with it his hopes of giving his tanks a fighting chance.

According to the Luftwaffe, which had finally been able to get some reconnaissance pictures of the British lines, the British had what looked like an armoured corps waiting at the entrance to the minefields and he was guessing that this Montgomery person would probably unleash his tanks in the next day or so. If he did, then von Thoma’s tanks and 88mm anti-tank screen should be able to inflict some real pain on the British.

And beyond that… he had to admit that he was looking over his shoulder at the moment. The Fuka position was looking increasingly attractive. Bayerlein’s analysis had shown that it was a good strong position.

He wished that he could have 6th Panzer there soon, but that was looking increasingly unlikely. The loss of the Proserpina had shocked the Regia Marina into announcing that the port was just too exposed to send anything important, and besides it was still in far too bad shape to take on large numbers of ships. He’d told Kesselring that he had to have at least some elements of 6th Panzer, hopefully its 88mm guns at the very least, but the bloody man had sent him a message saying that everything was going to Tripoli or Benghazi – and that besides the tanks and vehicles would need filters for their engines against the sand and dust. He had to admit that he hadn’t properly considered that point.

Of course some brainless cretin in Berlin had asked if it would be a good idea to have the division’s personnel flown over to bolster his front lines, but his reply to that had been a resounding no. Panzertruppen were highly specialised experts. They were not infantry. Moreover, they lacked the numbers to be a significant infantry force. Besides it was just a stupid idea as there was no way on earth that he’d be willing to sacrifice men that way.

He sighed and looked at von Luck. “Good luck,” he told him.

Von Luck saluted and left, leaving Guderian with the odd, unsettling, feeling that he might never see the man again.

[trekchu]

Oh dear Christ... Have the Germans detected the 22nd yet?

[Astrodragon]

All told the combined divisions totalled 35 Mark II panzers, 10 Mark IIIs and a solitary Mark IV.

Used properly it could be enough to stop the Australians

The phrase 'pissing into the wind' comes to mind here...

[Cymraeg]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

All told the combined divisions totalled 35 Mark II panzers, 10 Mark IIIs and a solitary Mark IV.

Used properly it could be enough to stop the Australians

The phrase 'pissing into the wind' comes to mind here...

I prefer the phrase "Needs must when the devil vomits into your kettle", but then I'm just a Blackadder fanatic.

[BlairWitch749]

time to beat a retreat; if high command isn't going to make a serious effort to either strengthen his air cover or rapidly reinforce the panzer army africa there is no choice but to pull back with as much equipment as possible; the infantry need to head back towards brega immediately and the mobile formations need to form a shield at the usual via balbia chokepoints and take advantage of monty's cautious pursuit

[Cymraeg]

1217 Hours, 29th September 1942, 2.5 miles SE of Sidi el Rahman
“Get those bloody guns up!” Major John MacKenzie shouted. It had been a hell of a day so far. Yes, they’d cracked the Jerry lines, but they’d taken some nasty knocks in the process and the battalion was now at 75% strength at best. The Germans had fought hard, but the Australians had been able to call on their artillery to smash them back whenever they’d tried to counter attack – and they were bloody good at that.

He looked to the North, where he could hear the sound of mortars. Hopefully the boys were in range of the Coast Road, so that they could knock seven shades of shit out of the German efforts at resupplying their forces to the North-East. In the meantime he had to make sure that the 6-pounders were brought up and properly sited, because he wanted to make sure that they had protection on their left flank.

“Sir, movement to the West,” Sergeant Daniels said suddenly.

MacKenzie raised his binoculars and peered westwards, ignoring the ribbons of sweat that were dribbling down his face. Yes, he could see clouds of dust on the horizon. Mechanised forces, Jerry bloody tanks.

“Captain Morrison?”

“Sir?” Morrison appeared almost by magic by his side. The Forward Observation Officer, or FOO, might have been a Pom, but he was bloody good at his job, namely raining death and destruction on the enemy.

“We have some targets for your boys.”

Morrison lifted his own binoculars, stared hard and then lowered them again, before nodding and scuttling over to his radio. “Hello Sunray, this is Digger Three,” He said into the mouthpiece. “I have an Uncle target for you…”

MacKenzie listened with one ear as he looked at the dust. Well, the guns of the entire Division were about to fire on that dust. Poor buggers.

[Cymraeg]

1535 Hours, 29th September 1942, 9th Australian Division HQ
Morshead saluted the injured German officer just before the man was led away to the rear and the waiting POW camp and then raised his eyebrows. The bloke had spoken quite good English. The fortune of war, he’d described his position, and had then thanked Morshead for getting the ambulances in so fast for his men.

The Australian strode back into his command tent and looked at the map, which was being updated carefully. The destruction of that annoying battalion on his left flank had been an added bonus to what was turning out to be not a bad day so far. They’d fended off that German armoured attack, or what had passed for one – it had been pitifully small by the standards that he’d been used to. Oddly under-tanked too, he couldn’t remember the last time that he’d seen so many Mark II’s. It had fallen victim to a combination of the 6-pounders and liberal usage of heavy artillery.

The artillery was firing right now again, as his boys pushed northwards and he hoped that the creeping barrage was giving them the support that they needed to get to the road. It wasn’t that far, but the Germans would be desperate to prevent the Australians from reaching the sea and cutting half the 164th Division off.

“Excuse me sir,” Captain Davis said, breaking into his thoughts. “Message from Brigadier Wrigley. The 2/13th have made it through to the sea.”

A grin split the face of the man whose troops had named him Ming the Merciless. “Reinforce them at once. And then tell the boys to hold and expect tank support. I want Roberts moving to join them straight away.”

[Domoviye]

I won't say thats the ballgame, but the Germans are definitely hurting and need a miracle.
I like.

[trekchu]

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me"
And he sang as he watched and waited till his billy boiled,
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".



Hooray! Go Aussies!

[Sior]

Originally Posted by trekchu

Waltzing Matilda, Waltzing Matilda
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me"
And he sang as he watched and waited till his billy boiled,
"You'll come a-Waltzing Matilda, with me".



Hooray! Go Aussies!

Sorry no Aussy armour in North Africa unless you count the captured Italian crap they used in Tobruk.

http://www.btinternet.com/~ian.a.paterson/orgarmour.htm