Alternate Great Greek States

When people think of ancient Greece, they think of Athens and Sparta. But both of their rises and the whole Peloponnesian War showdown weren't inevitable, obviously - Athens pre-democracy wasn't nearly as great as Athens with democracy, Sparta was neutralized by Tegea for a long time, etc. So what other Classical Greek cities might be able, with the right PoD, to equal or perhaps exceed the power that Sparta and Athens showed IOTL, besides Athens and Sparta themselves?

I'm going to suggest Argos as the most likely "other" Greek city that could've become a hegemonizing force. IIRC, for a long time, it was the most populous and richest Greek city, they have history going for them, Mycenae being right next door to them, and really if they beat Sparta before the Peloponnesian League gets going, Argos could really quickly create their own Peloponnesian empire. The PoD would obviously have to be before the Persian War... I think an Argive victory after the Battle of Champions in 546 BC could do it, as it would check Spartan growth after their conquest of Tegea, and might be able to wrest Arcadia, and maybe Corinth (though that might be tougher, with Sparta and Corinth's more positive history, for Corinth to abandon Sparta for Argos - this would probably require another war) from Sparta's de facto control. Argos could use the helots to their advantage in their wars with Sparta too - timing a helot revolt and an Argive invasion before Sparta's built up such a powerful alliance could be devastating for Sparta and could quickly make Argos the most powerful state in Greece, with the Peloponnese more or less conquered.

EDIT: Despite Thebes' hegemony IOTL under Epaminondas and whatnot, I am allowing Thebes.
 
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Be warned, I know very little about this area of history, so correct away any ideas I goof.

Syracuse and the cities of Magna Graecia (Taras seems to come to mind) also did pretty well, as did the peoples down there, like the Lucanians and Brutii, both of whom held off and annoyed the Romans up to the Social Wars. Thessaly is also one that might to fairly well, but correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Ephesus was a major port and trade city up until the Byzantine Empire and was only abandoned after the Ottomans built up a neighboring harbor. If you can avoid the silting of the harbor, it could remain a major Anatolian port for far longer.
 
Corinth, Thebes, Argos, Achaea, and Pellas all seem like possible candidates at various points in history.
 
I'm going to throw out Larissa too. If Larissa could've gotten a better hold earlier over Thessaly, I think it could do a fair amount of damage.

Corinth, Thebes, and Argos seem to me to be the most obvious candidates, as they were probably the "second tier" of cities in Greece Proper behind Sparta and Athens, but I can't think of a good, specific PoD for Corinth and Thebes to gain power before the Persian War - Corinth was under a violent tyranny for a while, and then was kind of permanantly made Sparta's "second" in the Peloponnesian League after Sparta helped oust that tyranny, so it'd have to be an early PoD for it. Perhaps a gentler and more competent tyranny, like by a guy like Argos' Pheidon. Thebes... I can't think of a real solid historical PoD for it, but I'd think it'd have to involve Thebes subjugating the Boeotian cities like Athens did Attica (as King of Malta says), which would be tough. It's easier to think of ones for Argos because we know more of what they did before the Persian Wars because that's when they were most powerful and when they were fighting Sparta.

Syracuse is an interesting one... it'd be a really late PoD, in fact too late of one given my own requirements, but maybe a successful Agathocles could produce a Syracusan "superpower"?

I do like the Anatolian suggestions, but I do have to wonder how any state there could become powerful enough to repel Lydia or other expansionist powers that may arise. *coughpersiacough* Maybe for Ephesus, a PoD involving the Cimmerians to put them clearly above all the other Ionian cities, and keep them powerful enough to repel invaders?

And, while I'm talk about eastern Greek cities in Ionia and stuff, what about an Aegean island, like Chios, Rhodes, Samos, or Lesbos, that might be spared by Anatolian and Greek powers? Or, as another idea, Byzantium?
 
When people think of ancient Greece, they think of Athens and Sparta. But both of their rises and the whole Peloponnesian War showdown weren't inevitable, obviously - Athens pre-democracy wasn't nearly as great as Athens with democracy, Sparta was neutralized by Tegea for a long time, etc.

How about Messenia? Unlike Sparta/Laconia, Messenia had fertile soil and seems to have relatively prosperous. Spartans had to win the First Messenian War (c. 743-724 BC) and actually conquer Messenia even to properly support their then-current population.

For the next few centuries, Sparta mostly relied on the agricultural production of Messenia and the slave labour on the Messenians to maintain itself. When Thebes crushed Sparta at the Battle of Leuctra (371 BC) and created a newly independant Messenia, it was arguably the beginning of the end for the Spartans.

Now what happens if events go into a different direction:

Phase 1: Sparta spent the early phases of the 8th century BC trying to annex various Peloponnesian towns in its direct vicinity: Amycles, Faris, Geronthres, etc. Some of these towns were allies of Argos, others stood in the way between Laconia and Messenia. Argos did attempt to stop the Spartan expansion. But apparently did so with no help from other city-states and failed. Messenians are reported to have taken no part in the wars that brought their Spartans to their door-steps. Even when Helos, placed right at the mountain passages, fell to Sparta.

What happens if Messenians realize the threat early on and ally themselves with Argos? Premature end to the conquest dreams of Sparta?

Phase 2: The Spartans started the war with a surprise attack, which preceded the formal declaration of the war. Similar to what the Japanese did in 1941. They captured the Messenian town of Ampheia and turned into their first strongold on the other side of Taygetus. From Ampheia, they were able to contact raids on the Messenian countryside and steal supplies during the harvest. It reportedly took about four years for the Messenians to organize themselves and launch their first counter-attack.

What happens if the Messenians are actually expecting the attack and have already strengthened their defenses? There was a precedent. Teleclus, a previous king of Sparta, had attempted a similar surprise attack on the Messenians and got slaughtered. Alternatively, what happens if the Spartans idiotically first declare war and then march to Ampheia? Founding the town gates closed and the Messenians preparing for a siege?

Phase 3: Direct confrontations between the Spartan and Messenians resulted in bloody standstills. Requiring the two opponents to spend a few years rebuilding their strength. However the Spartans benefited from recruiting the men of recently annexed towns and attracting mercenaries. While, the Messenians were fighting alone and focused their efforts on relocating much of their population to Mount Ithome, the most defensible position of their area.

What happens if the battles actually produce a definite victor? And if the Messenians wage a more agressive war?

Phase 4: Following the death of Euphaes, King of Messenia, there was no clear successor. The Messenians offered the throne to Aristodemus, one of their best generals. Aristodemus started what was essentially a guerrilla phase of the war, with lots of Messenian raids answered by Spartan raids. Aristodemus also managed to gain military support from Arcadia, Argos and Sicyon. However, the alliance with Argos resulted in Corinth, Argos' traditional rival, moving into an alliance with Sparta.

The basic question of this phase is what happens if Aristodemus tries to move the main theatre of operations away from Messenia? Convincing his allies to open a second front, for example.

Phase 5: Despite some actual victories on the battlefield, the situation turned desperate for the Messenians who had trouble replacing their battle casualties. Aristodemus commited suicide around the 20th year of the war. Leaving the Messenians leaderless and with morale at an all times low. They soon surrendered. The Spartans went on to colonize Messenia, with part of the local population being enslaved. Other Messenians were allowed to go into self-exile, spreading around the Greek world. The most notable community of exiles was that which helped colonize Rhegium (c. 720 BC), one of the first Greek colonies in the Italian Peninsula.

While the Spartan victory seemed inevitable by this point, there are indications that the prolonged war was exhausting the Spartans as well. Internal political tensions became evident, with the Damos (the collective body of Spartan citizenry) demanding increased authority over the decision making process. Something which both co-kings and the Gerousia (Council of Elders) vehemently resisted. While the Spartan aristocracy demanded certain privileges on the division of recently conquered territories. Tensions actually continued following the War. Poldydorus, one of the two kings and victor of the War, seems to have been assassinated by a disgruntled nobleman.

What happens if the internal tensions erupt into a civil conflict ... before the end of the Messenian War? Preventing Sparta from fully annexing Messenia and giving remaining Messenians time to recover.

A surviving Messenia could have its own chance to rise if Sparta fails to expand further than the Taygetus mountain. It had better chances to support a large population, relatively decent military forces and, at times, surprisingly effective leadership.
 
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how about thassos ? (and this has nothing to do with me being biasd by having visited the place last summer :D )
 
My thought on seeing 'great greek' was magna graeca. While syracuse has already been mentioned, one of the others could have risen to prominence .. or better yet a coalition of them.
 
Pherae, if Jason had lived longer.
Corinth.
Delphi. Never came close in OTL, but maybe it could have leveraged its prestige much further. Alternatively, Phokis, if it could have gained control of Delphi early enough.
 
My thought on seeing 'great greek' was magna graeca. While syracuse has already been mentioned, one of the others could have risen to prominence .. or better yet a coalition of them.

My titling this "Great Greek states" and Magna Graecia being "Great Greece" is a bit of an accident and a coincidence on my part - I know you all realize that, but I just think it's funny that I didn't make the connection until you just pointed that out. :eek:

Anyways, as to a coalition of Magna Graecian states... maybe an earlier and longer living Gelon kind of character could do it? Tarentum is also possible, though they are a bit removed from the rest of Magna Graecia. Zancle/Sicilian Messenia seems like a solid choice too if the right circumstances come, being right in the middle of things and a fairly rich place.


You know, I didn't even think about Messenia. :eek: That's a really interesting idea you've got going, and I for one would love to see more of it.

Could some sort of 'Delphic League' emerge?
Pherae, if Jason had lived longer.
Corinth.
Delphi. Never came close in OTL, but maybe it could have leveraged its prestige much further. Alternatively, Phokis, if it could have gained control of Delphi early enough.

Delphi's an interesting idea, because Delphi was the biggest thing linking classical Greece together besides the same language and basic culture... I just don't know how it'd go about it. I mean, if you oppose Delphi's league, you can just point out that there are other, highly respected oracles that are right just as or almost as much as Delphi (Dodona, Amphiareion, most notably), plus Delphi itself doesn't have that many resources other then what other states gave to the oracle. Perhaps one interesting side effect perhaps an attempted Delphic League is that maybe Greece becomes divided into "Oracular Leagues" that all oppose each other. Whatever the case, a Delphic League is a really interesting thought.

how about thassos ? (and this has nothing to do with me being biasd by having visited the place last summer :D )

Thasos is interesting, but there are other more powerful Aegean states - I mean, Chios and Samos (Samos particularly under Polycrates) both displayed a lot mroe power then I'm aware Thasos ever did - maybe I'm wrong, but that's the impression I've gotten. It's kind of removed from the other major islands and Greece itself, which could benefit it, but I think would hurt it more.
 
Syracuse and the cities of Magna Graecia (Taras seems to come to mind) also did pretty well, as did the peoples down there, like the Lucanians and Brutii, both of whom held off and annoyed the Romans up to the Social Wars. Thessaly is also one that might to fairly well, but correct me if I'm wrong.

Syracuse often served as the leading power of Magna Graecia and actually managed to establish its own colonies. It could indeed rise to Great Power status. If it can defeat its main rival: Carthage.

All three Sicilian Wars were mainly conflicts between Syracuse, Carthage and their respective allies:

*First Sicilian War (480 BC). Gelo, Tyrant of Gela and Syracuse (reigned 491-478) and his ally Theron, Tyrant of Acragas (reigned 488-473 BC) had joined forces in the 480s BC in an attempt to unite Sicily under their control. Threatening the influence of Carthage over the island and the safety of several allies of the Carthagenians, such as the cities of Rhegium, Selinus and the Elymians in Western Sicily.
**Carthage send an expeditionary force under Hamilcar. Said expeditionary force was humiliatingly defeated at the Battle of Himera. Leaving the Carthaginians terrified that the Syracusians would bring the battle to them on African soil. Instead Gelo simply asked for the defeated Carthage to pay 2,000 silver talents in indemnity and for stabilization of the borders between them. The Carthaginians agreed. Both powers seized all attempts at further expansion over Sicily, turning their attention instead to internal reforms and expansion of their trade networks.

*Second Sicilian War (410-340 BC). The War was a continuation of an earlier conflict betweem the cities Selinus and Segesta. Segesta was loosing the War for quite a while and initially asked for the assistance of Athens. Resulting in the Sicilian expedition (415-413 BC) and bringing Selinus under the protection of Syracuse. The Syracusians managed to kill, capture and/or enslave the entire Athenian expeditionary force. Leaving Segesta in worse trouble than ever. They sought a new protector to replace Athens. And Carthage responded, eager to renew its influence over Sicilty.
**While initially the Carthaginians had an easy time, their presence triggered developments in Syracuse. Dionysius I, Tyrant of Syracuse (reigned 405-367 BC) set up a new authoritarian regime and devoted the rest of his life to fighting against Carthage. His death allowed the War to enter a Cold War-like phase for a while. Until the Carthaginians attempted to intervene in the internal affairs of Suracuse in 345 BC and campaigns started in earnest again. The end of the War found Carthage controlling certain areas of Western Sicily, while Syracuse exerted its influence over the rest of the island.

*Third Sicilian War (315-307 BC). Agathocles, Tyrant of Syracuse (reigned 317-289 BC) started the War by invading areas of Sicily which were under Carthaginian influence. His first battle with an actual Carthaginian force took place in 311 BC. However, his opponent general Hamilcar proved able to handily defeat him and capture much of the rest of Sicily. By 310 BC, Syracuse itself was under siege.
**A desperate Agathocles devised a plan on how to make the Carthaginians leave Sicily. He led an expeditionary force from Sicily to Africa, marching towards Carthage. The city had to recall part of its forces to help defend it. For the following couple of years, a Carthaginian army held much of Sicily and was besieging Syracuse, while simultaneously a Syracusian army held much of Tunis and was besieging Carthage. Neither army managing to capture the besieged capitals.
**The War ended with a Carthaginian victory. Agathocles continued ruling Syracuse and large areas of Sicily. But Syracuse was actually in decline and Carthage was arguable the true overlord of the entire Sicily. While Southern Italy had started falling under the influence of the Roman Republic.

The Third Siciliian War and its afterefects eventually led to the Pyrrhic Wars (280-275). When Pyrrhus, King of Epirus (reigned 307-302, 297-272 BC) challended both Carthage and rome as the new protector of Magna Graecia.
 
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Ephesus was a major port and trade city up until the Byzantine Empire and was only abandoned after the Ottomans built up a neighboring harbor. If you can avoid the silting of the harbor, it could remain a major Anatolian port for far longer.

Ephesus makes an interesting choice. Its population by the 7th century BC consisted of a mixture between Ionic Greeks, partly-Hellenized Carians and remnants of the Leleges. With intermarriages being rather common.

Ephesus seems to have served as a leading state in the Ionian League, a Confederation which also included Chios, Clazomenae, Colophon, Erythraea, Lebedus, Miletus, Myus, Phocaea, Priene, Samos, Smyrna and Teos. (Though Smyrna actually had a mixed Aeolian-Ionian population and joined the League for political reasons).

I would think that their only chance of resisting annexation by Lydia in the 6th century BC is for them to turn the Confederation into first a proper military alliance and then a federation. Perhaps the Cimmerian invasion of the 650s BC could serve as a wake up call that they might face further threats from the east.
 
And, while I'm talk about eastern Greek cities in Ionia and stuff, what about an Aegean island, like Chios, Rhodes, Samos, or Lesbos, that might be spared by Anatolian and Greek powers? Or, as another idea, Byzantium?

1) Chios is far too close to the Anatolian coast to be unaffected from developments there. Only 7 kilometers/5 miles separate the island from the mainland. It was fully Ionian and served as a founding member of the Ionic League.

2) Rhodes is situated 18 kilometers/11 miles from the Anatolian mainland. It was mostly Dorian, though with a considerable Phoenician minority. In the early phases of its classic history, Rhodes had three allied cities sharing its grounds: Lindos, Ialyssos, and Kameiros. Along with Cnidus, Halicarnassus, and Kos they formed the Dorian Hexapolis. Again their best chances for independence is if they act as a federation instead of a loose confederation.

3) Samos only has 1,6 kilometers separating it from the Anatolian mainland. But is a rather good choice for a rising power. While also a member of the Ionic League, Samos maintained an independent policy and often went to war against its supposed ally Miletus. It established itself as a leading commercial center and created its own extensive trade network. A network expanding from Egypt and Cyrene to Gibraltar. They were also a leading naval power and were among the earliest states to use triremes in naval warfare. Using them as early as the late 8th or early 7th century BC. (Thucydides claims that the trireme originated in Corinth and the Samians hired Corinthian naval engineers. Modern historians toy with the idea that both Corinthians and Samians could be adapting a Phoenician innovation).

The Achaemenids were able to conquer the island only after arranging the assassination of its tyrant Polycrates (reigned c. 538-522 BC). Which apparently led to leadership problems and a quick decline. Polycrates had previously resisted invasion attempts by the likes of Sparta and Corinth. Samos' best chance is probably for it to use its naval power to secure early control over large areas of the Aegean.

4) Lesbos has 5,5 kilometers/3,4 miles separating it from the Anatolian coast. Its population in the classical period consisted of Aeolian Greeks. While a great cultural center in the 6th century BC, its political significance might have been minor. There are few references to diplomatic events. The height of its power was arguably the rule of Pittacus of Mytilene (lived c. 640-568 BC) who was reportedly able to defeat Athens in regular warfare.

Perhaps Pittacus could turn his efforts to create a new League with the Aeolian cities of Anatolia, which were already overshadowed by their more soccessful Ionian and Dorian neighbours. Cities such as Aegae, Aegiroessa, Cilla, Cyme, Gryneia, Larissae, Myrina, Neonteichos, Notion, Pitane, and Temnus. Even Smyrna if it feels its partial Aeolian origin might offer them beetter options than their Ionian connections.
 
Actually, there WAS a Delphic League, albeit never so politically significant as other allegiances, that included a whole lot of greek states, (surely Athens was included).
 
Actually, there WAS a Delphic League, albeit never so politically significant as other allegiances, that included a whole lot of greek states, (surely Athens was included).
Googled it; here's what wikipedia had to say (link):

The Delphic Amphictyony

The least obscure and longest-lasting amphictyony was the Delphic or Great Amphictyonic League that was organized to support the greater temples of Apollo and Demeter. The League council had religious authority and the power to pronounce punishments against offenders. Punishments could range from fines to expulsion and to conduct sacred wars. The Amphictyonic League also set the rules of battle as to protect sanctuaries and/or impose sentences on those who molested sanctuaries.

Based on legend, the Great Amphictyonic League was founded somewhat after the Trojan War, for the protection and administration of the temple of Apollo in Delphi and temple of Demeter in Anthele (Ἀνθήλη), near Thermopylae. The founding myth claimed that it had been founded in the most distant past by an eponymous founder Amphictyon, brother of Hellen, the common ancestor of all Hellenes. Representatives of the twelve members met in Thermopylae in spring and in Delphi in autumn.

The twelve founders enumerated by Aeschines[11] were the Aenianes or Oetaeans (Αἰνιᾶνες, Οἰταῖοι), the Boeotians (Βοιωτοί) of Thebes, the Dolopes (Δόλοπες), the Dorians (Δωριείς) of Sparta, the Ionians (Ἴωνες) of Athens, the Phthian Achaeans (Ἀχαιοί), the Locrians (Λοκροί) [Opuntians (Ὀπούντιοι) and Ozolians (Ὀζολοί)], the Magnesians (Μάγνητες), the Malians (Μαλιεῖς), the Perrhaebians (Περραιβοί), the Phocians (Φωκεῖς), the Pythians (Πύθιοι) of Delphi, and the Thessalians (Θεσσαλοί). The League doctrine required that no member would be entirely wiped out in war and no water supply of any member would be cut even in wartime. It did not prevent members from fighting about the dominance over the temples.

Originally a religious organization, the Amphictyonic League became politically important in the 6th century BCE, when larger city-states began to use it to apply pressure to the lesser ones. In 356 BCE Phocians captured and sacked Delphi, and sacred war was declared against them. After a ten-year war the Phocians were expelled from the League in 346 BCE and their two votes were given to Macedonians who had helped to defeat them. Philip II of Macedonia used its power to further his expansionistic conquests in Greece. In 279, the Phocians were readmitted after they defended Delphi against an attack by the Gauls, and Aetolians – who already dominated the Delphi sanctuary – were admitted as new members. In the 3rd century BCE the Soteria (festival) was held in honour to the Greek victory against the Gauls.

By 191 BCE the League had 17 members but only the most dominant one had the two votes, when others had only one.

The league continued to exist under the Roman Empire but its authority was limited to the care of the temple of Apollo at Delphi. The Roman emperor Augustus incorporated the Aenianes, Malians, Magnetians and Pythians with Thessalians. Since Dolopes had vanished, he gave their position to the city of Nicopolis.

The Amphictyonic League vanished some time in the 2nd century CE.
 
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