USA wins the War of 1812

WI the US won the War of 1812 and annexes Canada?

How would this affect world history? What would the territory that would have become Canada look like today?
 
All of Canada?

Thats a bit unbelievable unless the Little General wins and the Yanks become his allies?

But the US defeating the most powerful empire in the world is very, very, very unlikely.

But to answer your question, the Uk would look to expand it's empire else where and the US would be even more imperialistic and aggressive and more up it self due to the ego boost.
 
The USA cannot win the war of 1812. If one side has a decisive victory here it will be the UK stomping the USA into the ground.

Quite.

The US can fare less humiliatingly than OTL. But the peace we actually got is probably the best we can ask for.

The US military is just not up to the challenge of doing more, even if we assume it isn't sabotaged by Jefferson a decade earlier.

A temporary partial occupation of Canada would be interesting, but not decisive.
 
The USA cannot win the war of 1812. If one side has a decisive victory here it will be the UK stomping the USA into the ground.

Well the real question is how? I mean Britain needs most of its strength in Europe to deal with Nappy and then the post Nappy chaotic environment. I mean was Canada seen as a big enough deal that the Brits would be willing to possibly forcede their interests in Europe to send the forces neccesary to decisively smash the US?
 
Well the real question is how? I mean Britain needs most of its strength in Europe to deal with Nappy and then the post Nappy chaotic environment. I mean was Canada seen as a big enough deal that the Brits would be willing to possibly forcede their interests in Europe to send the forces neccesary to decisively smash the US?

The USA can easily lose the war by virtue of Britain making better use of its Indian allies through a competent general, as opposed to General Failure. Such a force would be able to strike at the heart of the USA, and fear of that coupled with the universal strings of defeat on land and sea pretty much qualify as "defeat." Britain won't re-annex the USA, but it's a trivial matter to turn the already-dismal performance of the USA IOTL to much worse than IOTL. And it won't re-annex the USA primarily because it *does* have more to focus on WRT the Concert of Europe. The most likely result is a pan-Indian confederacy that lasts for at most two generations before the forces that would be working against it collapse it, but only two generations completely alters US history as we knew it.
 
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Well the real question is how? I mean Britain needs most of its strength in Europe to deal with Nappy and then the post Nappy chaotic environment. I mean was Canada seen as a big enough deal that the Brits would be willing to possibly forcede their interests in Europe to send the forces neccesary to decisively smash the US?

It doesn't need much to decisively smash the US. It did a pretty good job OTL with what it did send in 1814.

Not flawless, but its a sign of how much of a challenge that would be.

And what Snake said on the Indians.
 
It doesn't need much to decisively smash the US. It did a pretty good job OTL with what it did send in 1814.

Not flawless, but its a sign of how much of a challenge that would be.

And what Snake said on the Indians.

Right, and this is the Napoleonic Age, with British influence in India more profitable than re-annexing breakaway North American states. A pro-British pan-Indian Confederacy under Tecumseh and his successors having hegemony over the interior of North America for a generation or at most two is the most likely result of a decisive British victory. For the USA that kind of decisive defeat pretty much explodes every single syllable of building US mythology. Now, what happens a generation or two later......
 
The US could have certainly offered a far better performance in the war if the Federalists continued to maintain the Presidency and authority in Congress, or possibly if someone other than Jefferson became President in 1801. The Adams administration had a set of plans in place that were building up the army and navy, including efforts regarding arsenals and shipyards. Jefferson did establish the USACE and West Point (among other things), but for success in 1812 it might be even better to fully invest in officer training and development through national and state academies.

The problem with all this is that it's expensive, and requires that excise taxes on various items be maintained in order to pay for it all. That said, US mercantile interests were immensely prosperous for some time given that American shipping and merchants lost so much of their British and European competition to Revolutionary and Napoleonic warfare. Jefferson cut enough from the budget that customs revenue and land sales could accommodate federal needs easily. The US could do even better if Jefferson or an alternate was willing to renew commercial treaties with London, and come to some agreement regarding shipping. This is useful and important, as a wealthier US with more shipping is far better able to finance a war and to have the sailors, shipyards, and supplies to fight at sea.

...But that's where we hit a roadblock. The US domestic interests that most favored doing things that would have most improved American performance in the war of 1812 were the least inclined to fight the British. Should the Federalists hold the levers of power, they're not nearly so likely to develop such an antagonistic relationship with London, as it'd go against their economic and political interests.

I suppose it could be possible that meddling enough in elections could lead to the Federalists lasting until 1808 or so in the Presidency, when the Jeffersonian-Madison clique manages to get one of its own elected. The problem would be making sure that said President gets things on the road to a recognizable war with the Federalist military establishment and national economy more or less intact.

In the end though, "doing better" is all the US can do. All of Canada is out of reach, and the Royal Navy will be superior in strategic terms. Maybe peninsular Ontario and moderately favorable settlement of disputed borders is obtainable, but it's rather difficult to have London accept anything more than that. Once the war in Europe is over, most US grievances evaporate, and Britain is able to send more than enough to badly defeat the United States.
 
Very unlikely, America started out pretty freaking weak even with a proper build up its going to be a rough fight. I really don't see america being powerful enough to take on england in a real way until after the civil war. After that though any possible war just gets worse and worse for the british.
 
WI the US won the War of 1812 and annexes Canada?

How would this affect world history? What would the territory that would have become Canada look like today?

Well, for starters the real war goals of the United States were not to annex Canada. Rather, the initial plan was to occupy Canada and use it as a bargaining chip to secure concessions from Great Britain regarding border issues, Native American relations, and the impressment of American sailors. Before anyone responds in a knee-jerk fashion, think about it for a second. The US had just finalized the Louisiana Purchase less than a decade prior and had barely begun to settle it. They had no need for more land, pure and simple.

Furthermore, the War of 1812 was viewed as a massive inconvenience by Great Britain. With Napoleon running rampant in Europe there really wasn't a huge desire to fight America, especially over such trivial issues. Throughout the war, the possibility of a diplomatic solution wasn't that far off. For evidence, look at George Prevost's armistice in 1812 and subsequent attempts at negotiation, clearly he believed that the war could be averted. There are other things I can point to but ultimately one can't escape the fact that the War of 1812 was a needless one that really didn't have to be fought, and had cooler heads prevailed in the US probably wouldn't have.

That being said, I have proposed in the past a way for the US to "win" the War of 1812. Basically, it involves the US being a bit more sane in the strategy department during the early phases of the war. One of the great ironies of the War of 1812 is that for the entirety of the war the US recognized the strategic importance of taking Kingston and severing Upper Canada's supply line to the rest of Canada and by extension the British Empire. Yet due to poor intelligence, indecisive commanders, and spendthrift governments no attack on Kingston was ever mounted in OTL. Our Point of Divergence in this scenario is simple then, in this timeline, while planning for the War of 1812, the US puts an even greater emphasis on taking Kingston than in OTL. Hull's expedition is sent to Detroit, just like OTL and likely suffers a similar fate, however further east the Americans launch their attack. Using converted civilian craft they cross Lake Ontario and seize the vital city before significant forces can be accumulated there thereby cutting Isaac Brock and the rest of Upper Canada off from supply. The taking of Kingston also gives the Americans complete naval superiority on Lake Ontario further complicating matters for the British.

With both Kingston and Lake Ontario firmly in American hands, the British situation in Upper Canada collapses immediately. Brock will undoubtedly try to marshal his troops to try and retake the city. But with no appreciable logistical base and facing a well supplied, fortified American contingent in Kingston he's going to fail. Furthermore, without the constant flow of British supplies to Tecumseh's forces his numbers will dwindle rapidly. He'll probably be coerced by Brock into trying to retake Kingston. For the sake of the scenario let's say the remnants of Tecumseh's forces accompany Brock and attack Kingston resulting in a British defeat and the deaths of both Tecumseh and Brock.

In the aftermath of the failed Battle of Kingston, Upper Canada effectively falls under American control and George Prevost negotiates an armistice (Considering that he did so with the British were winning in OTL, wouldn't he do so if the British were losing in TTL?) As the winter of 1812/1813 draws on both sides are not looking forward to the coming campaign season. Despite having seized Upper Canada and defeated a portion of the British Army, America still faces the bulk of the British Army well entrenched in Quebec. On the other side of the coin, the British are now faced with launching an expensive campaign to oust the Americans from Upper Canada while the war in Europe rages on. Though hawkish politicians on both sides of the Atlantic call for an aggressive prosecution of the war in 1813, in TTL cooler heads prevail, and Prevost's armistice leads to negotiations eventually culminating in an Alternate treaty of Ghent.

America gets what it wants, an end to impressment (basically a non issue by 1813) British promises to stop aiding Natives Americans in the US (also a non-issue with the death of Tecumseh) and promises to resolve other outstanding issues such as borders, fishing rights, etc. in exchange for the return of Upper Canada.

World History probably is only altered in minor ways through the Butterfly effect. The Federalist party in the US will live a bit longer without the Hartford Convention but it won't be able to win in 1816 for sure. The Creek War is much shorter due to no distractions for the Americans. Probably a host of other differences in American history.

As for Canada, especially Upper Canada will be much different than OTL. One thing that immediately comes to mind is the issue of collaboration. In OTL most of the inhabitants of Upper Canada were actually American, lured there pre-war by offers of free land. In OTL there were serious issues surrounding collaboration in the areas that the Americans occupied. In TTL these issues will be writ large across the entire colony. I could see many Upper Canadian settlers, ostracized in Upper Canada post-war due to their collaboration moving south. Also there probably won't be a "militia myth" in TTL due to the previously mentioned factors as well as their "defeat" in the war. Canada remains closer to Britain for longer in this TL I'd imagine. The Family Compact also probably has greater power and influence for longer due to it's presence as a bastion of anti-American resistance during the war.
 
Well, for starters the real war goals of the United States were not to annex Canada. Rather, the initial plan was to occupy Canada and use it as a bargaining chip to secure concessions from Great Britain regarding border issues, Native American relations, and the impressment of American sailors. Before anyone responds in a knee-jerk fashion, think about it for a second. The US had just finalized the Louisiana Purchase less than a decade prior and had barely begun to settle it. They had no need for more land, pure and simple.

The US's policy on acquiring land in North America has always (up to and including Hawaii) been based on the idea that "more is better".

The Louisiana purchase went well beyond "what we needed" into "We can has it all?" by those responsible. Not saying it was entirely and utterly unreasonable (it was a great idea in the long term), but the US didn't need that.

That being said, I have proposed in the past a way for the US to "win" the War of 1812. Basically, it involves the US being a bit more sane in the strategy department during the early phases of the war. One of the great ironies of the War of 1812 is that for the entirety of the war the US recognized the strategic importance of taking Kingston and severing Upper Canada's supply line to the rest of Canada and by extension the British Empire. Yet due to poor intelligence, indecisive commanders, and spendthrift governments no attack on Kingston was ever mounted in OTL. Our Point of Divergence in this scenario is simple then, in this timeline, while planning for the War of 1812, the US puts an even greater emphasis on taking Kingston than in OTL. Hull's expedition is sent to Detroit, just like OTL and likely suffers a similar fate, however further east the Americans launch their attack. Using converted civilian craft they cross Lake Ontario and seize the vital city before significant forces can be accumulated there thereby cutting Isaac Brock and the rest of Upper Canada off from supply. The taking of Kingston also gives the Americans complete naval superiority on Lake Ontario further complicating matters for the British.
Hold on just one moment. The attack is launched with what military forces? Converted civilian craft might do it for shipping (I'm not entirely sure here but I'll go with it until disproven), but what soldiers? And what of whatever garrison the British have there? Who commands the American expedition?

Waiting until this is dealt with to deal with the rest, though a brief note: A "this is a pointless war." armistice is easier to say when winning - as opposed to when you want to drive the enemy out. Which the British will if Kingston falls.
 
If the US concentrates their forces and sever the St. Lawrence supply line around Ogdensburg early in the war, then they might have a shot at Montreal/Quebec prior to 1814 when the British reinforce with their Napoleonic veterans. That's the only way the US can conceivably win.

Wait somebody posting above me posted the same idea. I agree.
 
It is feasible that the US could get Upper Canada but probably at the price of losing eastern Maine. If the US has really good Generals and the British really bad ones then all of Canada could have been occupied as the St. Lawrence can be covered by artillery fire enabling a crossing and occupation of Montreal at the very least.

With a POD of around 1800 the US could get naval superiority for as long as the British are busy dealing with Napoleon. Britain at most could spare 12 ships of the line from Europe on 1800 the US was collecting materials for the construction of 8 powerful ships of the line. So a direct attack on Halifax and the Maritimes would be possible in that scenario.

Napoleon winning a decisive victory at Smolensk in 1812 or Bautzen in 1813 would mean the British have to deal with Nappy for at least a year or two more than OTL possibly meaning the US can walk away with some territorial gains by making peace with Britain.
 
The US's policy on acquiring land in North America has always (up to and including Hawaii) been based on the idea that "more is better".

The Louisiana purchase went well beyond "what we needed" into "We can has it all?" by those responsible. Not saying it was entirely and utterly unreasonable (it was a great idea in the long term), but the US didn't need that.

Though partially true, in this situation, your analysis is an oversimplification. Recently, numerous scholars have pointed out that initially the conquest of Canada was never seen as an end to the conflict, but rather as a means by which the conflict could be fought. By holding Canada, America would have a valuable bargaining chip with which it could entice Britain to change her policies elsewhere. Only towards the end of the war, when the Americans actually managed to win some victories did the idea of annexing Canada even begin to be considered, and even then, only fleetingly. (Pierre Berton The Invasion of Canada 1812-1813 1980 p.99)

Reginald Horsman's book Causes of the War of 1812 (Philadelphia: Philadelphia University Press, 1962) is also a good place to start on this matter. I can give you more sources if you like.

Hold on just one moment. The attack is launched with what military forces? Converted civilian craft might do it for shipping (I'm not entirely sure here but I'll go with it until disproven), but what soldiers? And what of whatever garrison the British have there? Who commands the American expedition?

All good questions. Consider that in the Winter of 1813, the British had roughly 900 regulars and an assortment of militia stationed at Kingston. In 1812, though I have no concrete numbers the forces there would probably be similar in size, if not slightly less. As for troops, the troops (and ships) were there in OTL sitting idly in Upstate New York during the period. The key POD here is that Congress makes an attack on Kingston a priority, thus providing the appropriate funding, and appointing better commanders instead of the dawdling incompetents of OTL Henry Dearborn and Isaac Chauncey. Perhaps in TTL the disgraced Oliver Hazard Perry is given an earlier chance to redeem himself, only on the waters of Lake Ontario instead of Lake Erie? Also perhaps in TTL instead of being left in charge of the Army of Indiana, William Henry Harrison is given the opportunity to take sole command of the Army in Upstate New York? Zebulon Pike is also a favorite of mine to lead such an attack. Dearborn will need to be *eliminated* though in order for this to go through.

Also an overland attack towards Kingston certainly also would have had the same effect should it succeed and indeed upon second thought, is far more likely to have occurred.

Waiting until this is dealt with to deal with the rest, though a brief note: A "this is a pointless war." armistice is easier to say when winning - as opposed to when you want to drive the enemy out. Which the British will if Kingston falls.

Again, though generally true, this ignores the facts on the ground and that the Governor General of Canada at the time George Prevost's conciliatory policy came about precisely because he felt that Upper Canada had little to no chance of withstanding the coming American invasion and that the war would soon be over anyway. His actions towards attaining an armistice predated Brock's success at Detroit. In TTL Prevost is going to have even more motivation to nip the war in the bud, especially as the American victory at Kingston makes the war's future prospects even more bloody and expensive.
 
Though partially true, in this situation, your analysis is an oversimplification. Recently, numerous scholars have pointed out that initially the conquest of Canada was never seen as an end to the conflict, but rather as a means by which the conflict could be fought. By holding Canada, America would have a valuable bargaining chip with which it could entice Britain to change her policies elsewhere. Only towards the end of the war, when the Americans actually managed to win some victories did the idea of annexing Canada even begin to be considered, and even then, only fleetingly. (Pierre Berton The Invasion of Canada 1812-1813 1980 p.99)

Reginald Horsman's book Causes of the War of 1812 (Philadelphia: Philadelphia University Press, 1962) is also a good place to start on this matter. I can give you more sources if you like.

Would be very much appreciated, partially just for curiosity's sake - I've always found the War of 1812 to be kind of interesting.

I'm not saying that the US necessarily wanted Canada. I'm just saying that that "we didn't need more land" really doesn't mean very much.

All good questions. Consider that in the Winter of 1813, the British had roughly 900 regulars and an assortment of militia stationed at Kingston. In 1812, though I have no concrete numbers the forces there would probably be similar in size, if not slightly less. As for troops, the troops (and ships) were there in OTL sitting idly in Upstate New York during the period. The key POD here is that Congress makes an attack on Kingston a priority, thus providing the appropriate funding, and appointing better commanders instead of the dawdling incompetents of OTL Henry Dearborn and Isaac Chauncey. Perhaps in TTL the disgraced Oliver Hazard Perry is given an earlier chance to redeem himself, only on the waters of Lake Ontario instead of Lake Erie? Also perhaps in TTL instead of being left in charge of the Army of Indiana, William Henry Harrison is given the opportunity to take sole command of the Army in Upstate New York? Zebulon Pike is also a favorite of mine to lead such an attack. Dearborn will need to be *eliminated* though in order for this to go through.

Also an overland attack towards Kingston certainly also would have had the same effect should it succeed and indeed upon second thought, is far more likely to have occurred.
Makes sense, all in all. But getting rid of Dearborn and Chauncey is going to take more than an attack of good judgment - neither of them have shown themselves to be miserable failures yet.

Again, though generally true, this ignores the facts on the ground and that the Governor General of Canada at the time George Prevost's conciliatory policy came about precisely because he felt that Upper Canada had little to no chance of withstanding the coming American invasion and that the war would soon be over anyway. His actions towards attaining an armistice predated Brock's success at Detroit. In TTL Prevost is going to have even more motivation to nip the war in the bud, especially as the American victory at Kingston makes the war's future prospects even more bloody and expensive.
Prevost's pessimism may not be the only factor here, though. I'm not saying its impossible, but it seems unlikely that the British government (meaning London) is going to put pressure on him and the forces there.

The War of 1812 may be an unwanted war, but successful American aggression isn't going to go over well.

So I think it gets more complicated than just "Prevost pursues an armistice."
 
Makes sense, all in all. But getting rid of Dearborn and Chauncey is going to take more than an attack of good judgment - neither of them have shown themselves to be miserable failures yet.

Dearborn's the key in this scenario as he's General in Chief of the US Army at the time. Given that he was quite obese I don't think it's too much of a stretch for him to have a heart attack and die prior to the declaration of war in 1812. Dearborn's death will undoubtedly change the entire planning of the war and thus perhaps more credence will be given to Hull's initial plan which focused on the Great Lakes. As Chauncey wasn't sent to Sacket's Harbor until 1813 in OTL, that's a bit simpler as all that needs to happen is for someone other than Chauncey to be given the posting.

Prevost's pessimism may not be the only factor here, though. I'm not saying its impossible, but it seems unlikely that the British government (meaning London) is going to put pressure on him and the forces there.

The War of 1812 may be an unwanted war, but successful American aggression isn't going to go over well.

So I think it gets more complicated than just "Prevost pursues an armistice."

The thing is, in OTL Prevost pursued his conciliatory policy quite independently from London, a freedom he had due to the immense distances involved. Also, given that he was an intensely conservative commander I have a hard time seeing him authorize an offensive to retake Kingston. Sure American aggression won't go over well, but consider that in OTL the Americans got the same deal as they do in TTL with considerably more aggression (albeit less success) and the lack of Napoleon rampaging through Europe.

I'll put together a bibliography a bit later hopefully later today or tomorrow...
 
Dearborn's the key in this scenario as he's General in Chief of the US Army at the time. Given that he was quite obese I don't think it's too much of a stretch for him to have a heart attack and die prior to the declaration of war in 1812. Dearborn's death will undoubtedly change the entire planning of the war and thus perhaps more credence will be given to Hull's initial plan which focused on the Great Lakes. As Chauncey wasn't sent to Sacket's Harbor until 1813 in OTL, that's a bit simpler as all that needs to happen is for someone other than Chauncey to be given the posting.

The seniority lists called. They want to laugh at your idea of having Perry go there. Or a good replacement to Dearborn, for that matter.

Which is a shame, because Perry is the kind of man you want. Same with Harrison.

But both are way too junior to for an Important Project of this sort, particularly before the ancient relics like Dearborn are proven to be worthless.

Easy enough to get rid of him personally if his health is that bad, however. That should make things at least less bad.

The thing is, in OTL Prevost pursued his conciliatory policy quite independently from London, a freedom he had due to the immense distances involved. Also, given that he was an intensely conservative commander I have a hard time seeing him authorize an offensive to retake Kingston. Sure American aggression won't go over well, but consider that in OTL the Americans got the same deal as they do in TTL with considerably more aggression (albeit less success) and the lack of Napoleon rampaging through Europe.
I have a hard time imagining him saying "Oh well, I guess we should just abandon Upper Canada." - and even if he says it, London accepting it instead of using it as a reason to find someone who will retake it from the pesky Americans.

Makes a big change in the war, and Prevost may well do what you said - but the response to those changes and his actions may not lead to more American success.

Looking at how things work out in North America, not final treaties, as what influenced those is unfamiliar to me. Most of what I know is on the naval side of things.

I'll put together a bibliography a bit later hopefully later today or tomorrow...
No rush.
 
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