WI: The Teutonic Knights invaded the Balkans?

ruski94

I would think because the knights moved their headquarters to Venice, from which they planned the recovery of Outremer, it would be easier to go through the Balkans to reach the Levant and the Crusader states.
Also couldn't their be a chapter of the Teutonic Knights that believed Eastern Orthodoxy was wrong because it wasn't pure Catholicism?
 

Elfwine

That sounds like how the Teutonic Knights decided to go after the Rus.

Somehow I doubt they'll do well in the Balkans.
 

Doctor Imperialism

I had to chuckle after seeing this thread - I just finished a EU3 game as the Teutons, wherein I conquered Greece and the Balkans in the first 75 years.

Seroiusly, though, that wouldn't happen. The distance is too great.
 

Elfwine

Rman96 said:
I had to chuckle after seeing this thread - I just finished a EU3 game as the Teutons, wherein I conquered Greece and the Balkans in the first 75 years.

Seroiusly, though, that wouldn't happen. The distance is too great.
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Well, if they have a base in Venice, its not necessarily that far.

But then, Constantinople is ~600 miles from Serbia. That's a long way.

Referencing this to put the distances in perspective.
 

Paraipan

I was thinking about this myself, but instead of the whole Balkans, I resumed only to Romania. If they could consolidate their position in Transylvania, they may start crusading against the Cumans. But, of course, the Mongols are coming ...
 

carlton_bach

I don't think 'invade' is the concept you are looking for. The Balkans were fundamentally different from the Baltic in that there was an established power structure with clear territorial claims in place. An attempt by a band of monastic knights to just walk in and set up shop would have been the two-weeks-and-an-hour variety (as in, the Hungarians laugh for two weeks and mop them up in an hour).

Of course, even in the baltic they didn't exactly do the terra nullius thing, and it is quite conceivable that a local ruler (Hungary springs to mind, actually) would be happy to integrate them into his power system. They did, for a while, offering them lands on the Cuman frontier. Fighting those pagans would have kept them busy and happy enough,. I guess, and been a boon to the military power of the kingdom. In the medium term, it might mean a solidly Catholic and partly German-speaking Walachia and Moldova. Interesting down the line - perhaps an area of South German Lutheranism that survives the counterreformation under Ottoman protection... Anyway, it's probably not what you are looking for, but evenn in its best days, the Teutonic Order on its own stands no chance against the Balkan kingdoms, let alone the Ottomans.
 

Monty Burns

Paraipan said:
I was thinking about this myself, but instead of the whole Balkans, I resumed only to Romania. If they could consolidate their position in Transylvania, they may start crusading against the Cumans. But, of course, the Mongols are coming ...
Click to expand...

Well, Teutonic knights sitting in well fortified cities and castles in the carpatian mountains shouldn't be much concerned about the Mongols IOTL. They'll dispatch some troops to the Hungarian king, which likely die. The order itself might not be that affected. And could gain from the power vacuum following the Mongolian retreat.
 

thrashing_mad

carlton_bach said:
I don't think 'invade' is the concept you are looking for. The Balkans were fundamentally different from the Baltic in that there was an established power structure with clear territorial claims in place. An attempt by a band of monastic knights to just walk in and set up shop would have been the two-weeks-and-an-hour variety (as in, the Hungarians laugh for two weeks and mop them up in an hour).

Of course, even in the baltic they didn't exactly do the terra nullius thing, and it is quite conceivable that a local ruler (Hungary springs to mind, actually) would be happy to integrate them into his power system. They did, for a while, offering them lands on the Cuman frontier. Fighting those pagans would have kept them busy and happy enough,. I guess, and been a boon to the military power of the kingdom. In the medium term, it might mean a solidly Catholic and partly German-speaking Walachia and Moldova. Interesting down the line - perhaps an area of South German Lutheranism that survives the counterreformation under Ottoman protection... Anyway, it's probably not what you are looking for, but evenn in its best days, the Teutonic Order on its own stands no chance against the Balkan kingdoms, let alone the Ottomans.
Click to expand...

Disunited Hungary might work, just like it worked OTL with disunited Poland. We can have situation where some carpathian Hungarian Duke fails at attempts to conquer land from neighbouring Cumans, so he grants Teotonic Knigts some small frontier area (just like Konrad of Masovia did with Chełmno/Culmerland). Knights use similar tactics to OTL Prussian conquest, where they slowly creep into enemy territory, avoiding decisive battles, build castle on fortified position, repeat. After a while they become powerful enough to ignore Hungarian Duke when he demands land back, and even take some territory from him (with Transylvanian Saxons perhaps). At the same time we have German migration and Germanisation of local Vlachs/Cumans - leading to equivalent of OTL East Prussia in OTL Romania.
 

Paraipan

Monty Burns said:
Well, Teutonic knights sitting in well fortified cities and castles in the carpatian mountains shouldn't be much concerned about the Mongols IOTL. They'll dispatch some troops to the Hungarian king, which likely die. The order itself might not be that affected. And could gain from the power vacuum following the Mongolian retreat.
Click to expand...

Well, I was thinking about the Teutons controlling parts of Wallachia and Moldavia, by the time the Mongols arrive, which would be a big problem for the Knights.

thrashing_mad said:
Disunited Hungary might work, just like it worked OTL with disunited Poland. We can have situation where some carpathian Hungarian Duke fails at attempts to conquer land from neighbouring Cumans, so he grants Teotonic Knigts some small frontier area (just like Konrad of Masovia did with Chełmno/Culmerland). Knights use similar tactics to OTL Prussian conquest, where they slowly creep into enemy territory, avoiding decisive battles, build castle on fortified position, repeat. After a while they become powerful enough to ignore Hungarian Duke when he demands land back, and even take some territory from him (with Transylvanian Saxons perhaps). At the same time we have German migration and Germanisation of local Vlachs/Cumans - leading to equivalent of OTL East Prussia in OTL Romania.
Click to expand...

This is what I was talking about ... imagine a German Duchy of Transylvania in the XVI-XVII century, carving a Kingdom, like the OTL Duchy of Prussia.
 

Elfwine

Paraipan said:
This is what I was talking about ... imagine a German Duchy of Transylvania in the XVI-XVII century, carving a Kingdom, like the OTL Duchy of Prussia.
Click to expand...

Wasn't the kingdom carving aspect from Brandenburg, rather than within Prussia?

More to the point, how are they going to survive the rise of the Ottomans (or something similarly threatening)?
 

thrashing_mad

Elfwine said:
Wasn't the kingdom carving aspect from Brandenburg, rather than within Prussia?

More to the point, how are they going to survive the rise of the Ottomans (or something similarly threatening)?
Click to expand...

Perhaps with monastic Teutonic state fortified in Wallachia/Transylvania/Moldavia, some equivalent of Crusade of Varna might actually succeed at stopping or delaying Ottoman european expansion?
 

Elfwine

thrashing_mad said:
Perhaps with monastic Teutonic state fortified in Wallachia/Transylvania/Moldavia, some equivalent of Crusade of Varna might actually succeed at stopping or delaying Ottoman european expansion?
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Its possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

The Crusade of Varna failed for reasons that don't seem likely to be changed by the presence of a Teutonic state here.
 

thrashing_mad

Elfwine said:
Its possible, but I wouldn't bet on it.

The Crusade of Varna failed for reasons that don't seem likely to be changed by the presence of a Teutonic state here.
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Well, Wallachia became Ottoman vassal only in 1415, and Teutonic State would likely fare better. Perhaps situation would be similar to OTL in Prussia - TO being slowly defeated by Ottomans, resulting decline leads to revolts of cities (like with Prussian Confederation), which finally turns remnants of Teutonic state into secularized (maybe even protestant) vassal of Ottoman Empire.
 

Elfwine

thrashing_mad said:
Well, Wallachia became Ottoman vassal only in 1415, and Teutonic State would likely fare better. Perhaps situation would be similar to OTL in Prussia - TO being slowly defeated by Ottomans, resulting decline leads to revolts of cities (like with Prussian Confederation), which finally turns remnants of Teutonic state into secularized (maybe even protestant) vassal of Ottoman Empire.
Click to expand...

Why would it fare better?

I mean, what does it have that would stand up to an Ottoman army more successfully than OTL Wallachia?

I think the difference so far as the Ottomans or a similar power is concerned is more in the details than the balance of power.
 
SavoyTruffle

SavoyTruffle

thrashing_mad said:
Well, Wallachia became Ottoman vassal only in 1415, and Teutonic State would likely fare better. Perhaps situation would be similar to OTL in Prussia - TO being slowly defeated by Ottomans, resulting decline leads to revolts of cities (like with Prussian Confederation), which finally turns remnants of Teutonic state into secularized (maybe even protestant) vassal of Ottoman Empire.
Click to expand...

Could work. Teutonic Wallachia likely would attract German settlement like in Transylvania.
 
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