Butterflies Without Consequences

[oshron]

i just thought this would be a useful thread to make. basically, we list and discuss things that could be butterflied in or out of a given timeline--or any timeline, for that matter--without it really affecting that TL. basically, just butterfly effects that one would want to add to their timeline to give it a feel of being genuinely strange or different without affecting the timeline itself

for an example, ill use the subject of a relatively recent thread: instead of vanilla, some other flavor (say, rosewater) is the "default" flavoring. in this case, the non-existance of vanilla doesnt affect anything, as opposed to, say, chocolate which is pretty important to pre-columbian central american culture

as another, a difference of media, basically in terms of the story. i can give an example of my own creation for this: the setting of an Indiana Jones movie analogous to Temple of Doom could be set in central america and focus on a cult dedicated to quetzalcoatl instead of the thugee. in my actual example, the historical setting is very different, but it could easily work for anything: traditionalist aztec empire, spanish america, US takeover of mexico, or whatever

does anyone else have any examples?

incidentally, if i put this in the wrong subforum, please correct me; i figured the pre-1900 board was the best place for this

[kevvy2010]

If Hitler drank coffee instead of tea on the morning that he decided to invade the Soviet Union.

[Elfwine]

Almost anything to do with polar exploration.

There are a lot of interesting stories, particularly if you like grim survival epics, but it would be pretty hard to make it more or less than that.

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Of course this can be done with very small, minor PODs.

[pieman97405]

May 10th, 1869. Two track layers are in different places when this picture is taken.

[Prefrence]

If this thread was not created.

[tormsen]

Elfwine is the only one who seems to have understood the intent behind the OP.

Fashion trends could be very different, and should be, in a given TL. But despite superficial appearances, those kind of differences are unlikely to have geopolitical effects. _Except_ when differing tastes lead to a differing economic environment, and then it does have greater effects. A sudden craze in 18th century China for English woolens, for example, would have huge effects.

[SavoyTruffle]

The absence of a Habsburg lip.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by tormsen

Elfwine is the only one who seems to have understood the intent behind the OP.

Fashion trends could be very different, and should be, in a given TL. But despite superficial appearances, those kind of differences are unlikely to have geopolitical effects. _Except_ when differing tastes lead to a differing economic environment, and then it does have greater effects. A sudden craze in 18th century China for English woolens, for example, would have huge effects.

I wouldn't say they necessarily have to be, but the odds are good that they will be.

This isn't related in the strictest sense, but the popularity of a given first name is likely to be different after a while from a given POD. It is very likely that changes that lead to George Washington being remembered differently (or never being) will have a significant impact on how commonly the name George is.

Attention to those things is a good way of showing the subtler impacts of the POD.

A few other things: Ice cream cones. Hot dogs. Superstitions (this one not so much).

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by SavoyTruffle

The absence of a Habsburg lip.

No, if they looked normal, their dynasty might spread more than OTL.

[Falastur]

Originally Posted by pieman97405

May 10th, 1869. Two track layers are in different places when this picture is taken.

The uber-butterflyist would point out that those two track layers in different positions would come home at minutely different times, eat their dinners at minutely different times, etc, until they have a conversation with some at a minutely different time which affects that person's timing and it spreads. Eventually this means someone "out of time" will catch someone at a point where it changes a conversation. Those in the conversation will now go away at totally different times and live different lives, possibly thinking about things in totally different ways. This then spreads to everyone they interact with. Eventually it affects birth, death and the running of states.

Originally Posted by tormsen

Elfwine is the only one who seems to have understood the intent behind the OP.

Unfortunately I think they understood it fine. They simply disagreed with it. The answers are sarcastic...

[SavoyTruffle]

Originally Posted by Zuvarq

No, if they looked normal, their dynasty might spread more than OTL.

I dunno, prognathism was something that found its way into the Habsburg bloodline before the whole marrying-nieces thing began.

[Falastur]

Pragmatism found its way everywhere before then. When your marriage is being arranged as a political tool, you don't need to look good...

[Yorel]

What would appear as butterflies of minor consequences would be concerning Litterature, Music, Games and things as such. After all, its logical that some of OTL authors and singers aren't born because of PODs and thus never write their books or songs while ATL authors and singers do reach fame thanks to books that would be unknown or not exist OTL. For example, in ATL there can be no Lord of the Rings because of no J.R.R. Tolkien (sad but possible) but an ATL author can have written an ATL book serving as the model of the Fantasy genre.

One can also have OTL books be a little different in ATL because of different things. For example, I could cite RyuDrago's timeline "The Heritage of Medici" where he talked about several minor butterflies as such. ITTL, Machiaveli still wrotes "The Prince" but didn't took Cesare Borgia as his inspiring figure and took a Medici. He also mentions an ATL version of the game "Assassin's Creed" where Ezio Auditore poisons Rodrigo Borgia/Alexander VI while it's not the case in the OTL game.

Of course, some books will have effects on History if they're not written, like The Manifest of the Communist Party or Mein Kampf. But still, these are some minor butterflies that can happen in a timeline thanks to a POD.

[DanMcCollum]

Originally Posted by Yorel

What would appear as butterflies of minor consequences would be concerning Litterature, Music, Games and things as such. After all, its logical that some of OTL authors and singers aren't born because of PODs and thus never write their books or songs while ATL authors and singers do reach fame thanks to books that would be unknown or not exist OTL. For example, in ATL there can be no Lord of the Rings because of no J.R.R. Tolkien (sad but possible) but an ATL author can have written an ATL book serving as the model of the Fantasy genre.

One can also have OTL books be a little different in ATL because of different things. For example, I could cite RyuDrago's timeline "The Heritage of Medici" where he talked about several minor butterflies as such. ITTL, Machiaveli still wrotes "The Prince" but didn't took Cesare Borgia as his inspiring figure and took a Medici. He also mentions an ATL version of the game "Assassin's Creed" where Ezio Auditore poisons Rodrigo Borgia/Alexander VI while it's not the case in the OTL game.

Of course, some books will have effects on History if they're not written, like The Manifest of the Communist Party or Mein Kampf. But still, these are some minor butterflies that can happen in a timeline thanks to a POD.

Only within reason, of course. Sporting events can have very dramatic effects upon culture and history. The Nike Riots come to mind, for instance (although, obviously, there was much more to it than that.) Also, literature and music can have a very strong impact on culture. Imagine in the Beatles never formed, for instance, or if the Punk Rock movement hadn't started.
Finally, on a side note, any TL where the Green Bay Packers don't win the first Superbowl would immediately lead to a dystopia of DoD proportians!

[Scipio Africanus]

I must say I fundamentally disagree with the premise of this thread. All butterflies have consequence by definition. According the the theory of alternate history, even the most minor change imaginable, say, a bug being in the wrong place and being stepped on, will have consequences that create an alternate timeline.
Allow me to provide another example,

Originally Posted by Savoy Truffle

The absence of a Habsburg lip.

This is a trait passed on to the Habsburgs after their union with the line of Valois-Burgundy. Phillip the Bold first displayed this trait, and passed it on to all his Habsburg heirs. To butterfly away the Habsburg lip, Mary the Rich needs to marry someone else, creating a drastically different Europe with a different balance of power.
Scipio

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Scipio Africanus

According the the theory of alternate history, even the most minor change imaginable, say, a bug being in the wrong place and being stepped on, will have consequences that create an alternate timeline.

I predict a 15-page argument between you and Elfwine.

[oshron]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

It is very likely that changes that lead to George Washington being remembered differently (or never being) will have a significant impact on how commonly the name George is.

maybe george would be less common in america if the first president had been named differently, but there's no doubt in my mind that it would be common at least in the british empire, after one of the many king georges. i suppose if we think of it like turtledove's atlantis (basically transplanting those characters into their OTL counterparts' places), we could see the name "Victor" being a very common name in america

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by oshron

maybe george would be less common in america if the first president had been named differently, but there's no doubt in my mind that it would be common at least in the british empire, after one of the many king georges. i suppose if we think of it like turtledove's atlantis (basically transplanting those characters into their OTL counterparts' places), we could see the name "Victor" being a very common name in america

Fair enough. I don't know enough on the issue of its popularity in Britain and the source of it to know whether the kings had any influence on it (Incidentally, Washington was named after his mother's guardian, so it has nothing to do with the kings).

Either way, the point that different things will influence the use (or nonuse) of names as a thing too minor to matter should be intact even if my illustration is faulty.

Zuvarq: I'm not sure if we should be flattered ("There is so much to say on this!") or take that as gentle childing. We being me or Scipio...I'm not quite vain enough to use the royal we. Honest.

And when did I become the anti-uberbutterflyist? Not that I mind that showing, but I'm wondering how it showed.

Link to an attempt at covering the subject: http://alternatehistory.com/discussi...d.php?t=201840 so we don't ruin a good thread on it.