How do we get Poland to convert to Protestantism?

Valdemar II

Banned
I was thinking what POD do we need to make Poland to convert. It is necessary it happens before the counter-reformantion (simply because I see it as almost impossible afterward).
I think it's better it also happens before Calvinism become popular in Poland, simply because Lutheranism are easier for the state to force on the population.
 
Poland had a significant Protestant population of burgers and lower nobles. Germans were often Lutheran, but the Lutheran religion was detested in Poland. Calvinism was preferred owing to the close relationship Poland had with France. The Polish King's certainly worked to decrease the influence of the Church; they ceased to pay Peter's Pence, for instance, and Sejm passed a Patent of Toleration. One interesting situation is Sigismund II Augustus. He married three times. First to Elizabeth of Austria, secondly to Barbara Radizwill, and thirdly to Catherine of Austria, his first wife's sister. After a miscarriage, Sigismund thought the marriage was cursed and she returned to Austria. He even tried to have the marriage annulled, the Habsburg influence within the curia insured it was impossible. Him having a legitimate heir was of great importance to Catholics and Protestants too, but he was too pious. Had he been a little less so, he might of used the same argument Henry VIII had used against Catherine of Aragon. He was closely connected to both the Catholic and Protestant parties, and managed to balance them both without angering them.

Another idea is just demography. Poland was a "haven" for Jews. So why not oppressed Protestants? It's something I plan to do in my TL, with Anabaptists and other radical sects seeking freedom in Poland, with the German communities embracing Lutheranism while Calvinism is popular amongst the Poles, with a growing community around Vilinius. Homegrown sects possible too, like the Polish Brethen, Arians, Antitrinitarians, ect.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Poland had a significant Protestant population of burgers and lower nobles. Germans were often Lutheran, but the Lutheran religion was detested in Poland. Calvinism was preferred owing to the close relationship Poland had with France. The Polish King's certainly worked to decrease the influence of the Church; they ceased to pay Peter's Pence, for instance, and Sejm passed a Patent of Toleration. One interesting situation is Sigismund II Augustus. He married three times. First to Elizabeth of Austria, secondly to Barbara Radizwill, and thirdly to Catherine of Austria, his first wife's sister. After a miscarriage, Sigismund thought the marriage was cursed and she returned to Austria. He even tried to have the marriage annulled, the Habsburg influence within the curia insured it was impossible. Him having a legitimate heir was of great importance to Catholics and Protestants too, but he was too pious. Had he been a little less so, he might of used the same argument Henry VIII had used against Catherine of Aragon. He was closely connected to both the Catholic and Protestant parties, and managed to balance them both without angering them.

I hadn't thought of a High Polish Church, it could be a perfect solution. it would also keep much of the antisemitism of early Protestantism down.

Another idea is just demography. Poland was a "haven" for Jews. So why not oppressed Protestants? It's something I plan to do in my TL, with Anabaptists and other radical sects seeking freedom in Poland, with the German communities embracing Lutheranism while Calvinism is popular amongst the Poles, with a growing community around Vilinius. Homegrown sects possible too, like the Polish Brethen, Arians, Antitrinitarians, ect.

Poland was in OTL until the deluge to large extent a haven for Protestant sects. But yes I could see a Polish Catholic Chuch being even more tolerant. In fact if the Ruthenians is hostile to the new state religion (and the confiscating of church property), I could see them being settled in the east.
 
Makes sense. I do think the OP wants the Polish crown to adopt a form of Protestantism as the state religion. Of course it would matter little in the scheme of things as Poland's quite tolerant.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Makes sense. I do think the OP wants the Polish crown to adopt a form of Protestantism as the state religion. Of course it would matter little in the scheme of things as Poland's quite tolerant.

I disagree, a shift to Protestantism would matter quite a lot, in OTL the Jesuit dominated Polish education. A shift to Protestantism would mean that the church property is confiscated, but also that the king need to educate his own priests. In fact I could see problems with the Ukranian Catholics as the king slowly replace their priests with High Polish priests, but at this point the king can force it through without anyone being able to stop him, (Russia is still to weak, the Habsburgs have other troubles). So we get a common Polish bible both among Poles and Ruthenians, which may shift Belarussian and western Ukranian over to West Slavic. Beside that with a royal university (or several) to educate priests, we will also see education being standardlised by the state. Of cource many nobles will likely use priests not educated in the official universities, because they are Calvinist rather than HPC. But still we will see a standalisation of the state, we didn't see in OTL.
Priest will likely be allowed to marry, this ensure that the clergy become a tool of social advancement over several generations much as it were in the Protestant countries.
 
What about Sigismund I seeing how the Protestant rulers strenghtened their power by taking the Church's lands decide to do the same in Poland. He already had the example of the Duchy of Prussia, where he aproved this arrangement.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
What about Sigismund I seeing how the Protestant rulers strenghtened their power by taking the Church's lands decide to do the same in Poland. He already had the example of the Duchy of Prussia, where he aproved this arrangement.

I must admit I have fallen slightly in love with the idea of Sigismund II Augustus establish a Polish national church, it gives most of the benefits of Lutheranism, but not the drawbacks of rampant antisemitism and intolerance, which sadly was very much part of early Lutheranism. Of course without the counterreformation, the Royal Prussia and Krakow area are likely going to stay Lutheran in theology. But honestly I can easily see the local Lutheran clergy recognise the High Polish Church authority if it leave their theology alone.
 
I disagree, a shift to Protestantism would matter quite a lot, in OTL the Jesuit dominated Polish education. A shift to Protestantism would mean that the church property is confiscated, but also that the king need to educate his own priests. In fact I could see problems with the Ukranian Catholics as the king slowly replace their priests with High Polish priests, but at this point the king can force it through without anyone being able to stop him, (Russia is still to weak, the Habsburgs have other troubles). So we get a common Polish bible both among Poles and Ruthenians, which may shift Belarussian and western Ukranian over to West Slavic. Beside that with a royal university (or several) to educate priests, we will also see education being standardlised by the state. Of cource many nobles will likely use priests not educated in the official universities, because they are Calvinist rather than HPC. But still we will see a standalisation of the state, we didn't see in OTL.
Priest will likely be allowed to marry, this ensure that the clergy become a tool of social advancement over several generations much as it were in the Protestant countries.

If this scenario happens and Belarussian and West Ukrainian shifts to west Slavic, would Russia be considered the lone East Slav nation then?
 
If Sigismund II establishes a National Church, it'd probably be more Calvinist flavored, but I think it might have some trappings of Lutheranism too. Most importantly, I think a Polish National Church, even if Calvinist in theology might maintain the episcopacy. Calvinism was definitely more popular amongst the native Poles and even Lithuanians. While there were Polish students at Wittenburg who brought the Lutheran religion to Danzig and Krakow, but it was national sentiments that directed them more towards Calvinism. Political traditions, ties with France, and antipathy of the Germans meant that Calvinism found a fair breeding group in Poland. It's also worth noting that the Hussites had flourished in Western Poland, and even before the Reformation the nation had a long harbored dissatisfaction against the Catholic clergy. So many different flavors and type of Protestantism popped up in Poland because much like in Germany: because of the preference and protections of the local nobles.

So it's up to Sigismund II to bring them together into a National Church. Typically Polish King's kept aloof from church matters, as they believed it was not the place of the King to interfere in religious matters. Yet the Sejms of the 1550s were dominated by Reformist princes, and lots of legislation was passed excluding the Catholic Church from public spheres. So many really only thought it a matter of time until Poland broke with Rome formally. She had a vibrant Protestant community that was only really quashed with the deluge and the Vasa monarchy, who brought along their Jesuits and the Counter-Reformation with the blessings of the Habsburgs. There is also the issue of while the towns and great nobles often embraced Protestantism, the peasants and lesser nobles often remained Catholic. It was often the poor of Poland who clung to the Catholic faith and saw the king as their protector against heresy. So in this way the Counter-Reformation found fertile ground in Poland the same way the Reformation did decades earlier.
 
What about having Sweden occupying Poland for a longer period than the original one from 1655 to 1660?....perhaps hanging on for another 100 years.

Perhaps inspired by Islam, more leniant taxes could persuade catholics to convert. Also social mobility (public employment) could be linked to religion.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
What about having Sweden occupying Poland for a longer period than the original one from 1655 to 1660?....perhaps hanging on for another 100 years.

Perhaps inspired by Islam, more leniant taxes could persuade catholics to convert. Also social mobility (public employment) could be linked to religion.

The purpose of this thread was to some point to avoid the Deluge.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
Also, I doubt such policies would work. Protestantism would be seen as the religion of the foreign invaders, it would be a situation similar to Ireland.

I think you project Polish attitudes backward, Poland in 1518 was less Catholic than Brandenburg. If Protestantism had become the official faith of Poland, it would by 1655 be as Protestant as Brandenburg. The strong pro-Catholic attitude of the Poles is a result of the Counter-reformation, the Deluge and Prussian and Russian occupation. I still think the union with Sweden is going to fail, but it's unlikely to turn as ugly as OTL.
 
I think you project Polish attitudes backward, Poland in 1518 was less Catholic than Brandenburg. If Protestantism had become the official faith of Poland, it would by 1655 be as Protestant as Brandenburg. The strong pro-Catholic attitude of the Poles is a result of the Counter-reformation, the Deluge and Prussian and Russian occupation. I still think the union with Sweden is going to fail, but it's unlikely to turn as ugly as OTL.

I'm talking about the idea of force Protestantism on the population during the Deluge.
 
I disagree, a shift to Protestantism would matter quite a lot, in OTL the Jesuit dominated Polish education. A shift to Protestantism would mean that the church property is confiscated, but also that the king need to educate his own priests. In fact I could see problems with the Ukranian Catholics as the king slowly replace their priests with High Polish priests, but at this point the king can force it through without anyone being able to stop him, (Russia is still to weak, the Habsburgs have other troubles). So we get a common Polish bible both among Poles and Ruthenians, which may shift Belarussian and western Ukranian over to West Slavic.

Ukrainian catholics? Union of Brest happened in 1596 as part of counter-reformational policies of Sigismund III. In Sigismund Augustus' times most Ukrainians/Ruthenians would have been Orthodox, except for highly polonized part of nobility.
 
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