WI; Austrian Hapsburgs retain land of Burgundy

[Grumpy young Man]

The land in this case does not end up in the hands of Spanish empire but remains a part of austrian Hapsburgs.

So, what would the wider picture look like? If the monarch is more sensible and didn't Duke of Alba'd the Dutch they remain somewhat pacified and stay as a part of the monarchy? Vienna has more resources to throw on the Turks ? England and France ally themselves to oppose Austria ? Maybe Hapsburg colonies in America since they have atlantic ports in this case, or any viable colonisation ?

[SavoyTruffle]

It's but one of many ways to avoid an independent Netherlands, but yes.

[DanMcCollum]

Well with the Austrian Habsburgs controlling Burgundy and the Neatherlands, they are certainly going to have a lot more resources to throw at their administration and private wars. You might have just created a situation were the Habsburgs are able to subdue the powerful electors and Dukes of the HRE and consolidate the region.

At the very least, I could see a situation were Dijion, or Amsterdam, becomes the capital of the Empire, since those cities would be much more caught up in European culture ways than Vienna. i suspect the Burgundy lands became the main powerbase of the Habsburgs, rathern than Austria, with the rather slowly becoming a backwater.

[yourworstnightmare]

If the Lowlands goes to the Austrian Habsburgs, they'd become very Western Europe oriented. The Lowlands would easily be the richest and most important part of the Habsburg domains. Wouldn't be surprised if they moved their court there.

[kasumigenx]

If Maria Theresa still marries Francis of Lorraine, Burgundy and Lorraine will merge.

[SavoyTruffle]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

If the Lowlands goes to the Austrian Habsburgs, they'd become very Western Europe oriented. The Lowlands would easily be the richest and most important part of the Habsburg domains. Wouldn't be surprised if they moved their court there.

I can imagine Charles V setting up his court in Antwerp or his birthplace of Ghent.

[yourworstnightmare]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

If Maria Theresa still marries Francis of Lorraine, Burgundy and Lorraine will merge.

That is if Maria Theresa and Francis of Lorraine would exist in such a TL. I can see royal marriages in Europe going different, thus creating completely alternate monarchs than those in our TL.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

That is if Maria Theresa and Francis of Lorraine would exist in such a TL. I can see royal marriages in Europe going different, thus creating completely alternate monarchs than those in our TL.

Whilst definitely true, Burgundy itself was created by a series of dynastic unions and I can see it being a definite aim to try to marry into Lorraine and hope to inherit the place, tho probably through the female side.

Are we assuming the survival of Trastamara Spain here, or just that the division of Habsburg territories goes differently ?

The latter presumably still sees the close working alliance between the 2 realms and Imperial involvement in Spain's wars, whereas Trastamara Spain would not be so closely caught up in the alliance system.

Either way it also makes constant war with France an inevitability, with a focus on the Netherlands/Burgundy area more than on Italy

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[Xavier]

Originally Posted by SavoyTruffle

I can imagine Charles V setting up his court in Antwerp or his birthplace of Ghent.

Charles V had the Low Countries and didn't set up court there... Though admittedly, he was one of the travelling-ruler kind and he did abdicate in Brussels. If some Habsburg sets up court in the Low Countries I'd expect it to be in Brussels, which is the capital of the LC by the time of Charles V. That being said, an imperial court in Antwerp would absolutely rock

[Elfwine]

Assuming that its retained by virtue of the inheritance being divided up differently, I wonder how this impacts Spain's finances. Spain spent more money on the Dutch Revolt than the crown received in wealth from the Indies (121 million ducats) - at least 218 million ducats went to the Military Treasury in the Netherlands between 1566 and 1654. (from The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers).

This is an enormous amount of the state's budget and thus debt.

On the other hand, not spending this much here might just mean more money is spent elsewhere because its not as if there aren't a multitude of areas crying out for every spare ducat.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

Assuming that its retained by virtue of the inheritance being divided up differently, I wonder how this impacts Spain's finances. Spain spent more money on the Dutch Revolt than the crown received in wealth from the Indies (121 million ducats) - at least 218 million ducats went to the Military Treasury in the Netherlands between 1566 and 1654. (from The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers).

Hrm. How did revenues from the Americas compare to other territories, anyway?

[Mikestone8]

Originally Posted by Xavier

Charles V had the Low Countries and didn't set up court there... Though admittedly, he was one of the travelling-ruler kind and he did abdicate in Brussels. If some Habsburg sets up court in the Low Countries I'd expect it to be in Brussels, which is the capital of the LC by the time of Charles V. That being said, an imperial court in Antwerp would absolutely rock

Best way to get that is to kill off Philip II (a good idea on general principles).

The next heir (in right of his wife) is the future Emperor Maximilian II. If he rules everything from Spain to Hungary, then Antwerp would be a reasonably central location. And given how many sons he had, a separate Burgundy in the next genration is quite likely.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Hrm. How did revenues from the Americas compare to other territories, anyway?

According to Paul Kennedy, Castile (not Spain in general, just Castile) was overwhelmingly the main source, but it seems the Americas were extremely valuable.

[Janprimus]

Originally Posted by Elfwine

According to Paul Kennedy, Castile (not Spain in general, just Castile) was overwhelmingly the main source, but it seems the Americas were extremely valuable.

Well IIRC Charles V received more from his Burgundian possessions, ,certainly per capita (from that I'm sure) than the Crown of Castille.

[Elfwine]

Originally Posted by Janprimus

Well IIRC Charles V received more from his Burgundian possessions, ,certainly per capita (from that I'm sure) than the Crown of Castille.

Quite possibly true, though not in contradiction with the above. Castile as the main source was in regards to the Spanish branch and their budget, not Charles V's reign.

[Arafeel]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

Hrm. How did revenues from the Americas compare to other territories, anyway?

Apperantly Antwerep gennerated 4 times the amount of the americas for the Spanish crown in the 1500.s