WI: British Victory at New Orleans

What if the British had managed to take New Orleans in the war of 1812. Although the War of 1812 was over when the treaty of Ghent was signed a few weeks earlier, would this victory affect anything, such as a British desire to continue the war?

If the british continue the war and commit more soldiers, would Napoleon have better luck in the 100 days if he decides to return to France like in OTL?

I don't think it would really change all that much as I don't believe anyone in the UK was seriously thinking of trying to retake the US by that point, they knew that boat had sailed. The British had already ceased impressment, the main complaint, before the war started and after a decade of more war in Europe they just wanted to get back to normal so I don't think they would try and abrogate the treaty. The main effects would be much less prestige for Jackson which could mean no Presidency and avoiding future debates about whether the US lost the war or not.

The war was already over when New Orleans was fought so a British Victory would make absolutely no differance whatsoever to the War of 1812. The biggest effect it would have would be to make Andrew Jackson a forgotten figure of history.

Nytram01 said:

The war was already over when New Orleans was fought so a British Victory would make absolutely no differance whatsoever to the War of 1812. The biggest effect it would have would be to make Andrew Jackson a forgotten figure of history.

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I agree with you for the most part. However, beyond the possible death or irrelevance of "Old Hickory," I think a British victory would color how the US remembered the War of 1812. By the time the peace treaty was signed the US had faced defeat in almost every theater except against the Indians. The victory at New Orleans, even coming after the end of the War left Americans with a somewhat rosy memory of just how poorly the war had gone.

Instead of having an inspiring story to conclude an otherwise unsuccessful war, the American public would just focus on the burning of Washington DC, with New Orleans just joining a Conga Line of humiliations.

As for its effect on US foreign policy, I think it could go one of two ways. On the one hand it could lead to greater deference towards the UK, since the Americans would have more reason to respect their force projection. The US might be reluctant to try and bully Spain into giving up Florida if the mention of British power inspired fear in the US. On the other hand, it could just inspire more anglo-phobia on the part of the US, and make them less likely to compromise about issues such as the Northern border, and cooperating on issues such as abolishing slavery.

There is a timeline currently in progress with this exact scenario. Although it's not so much that the British won the battle, but how the Americans behaved during the battle that really changes things.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=194832

No Jackson Presidency for one.

I also think we wouldn't see an "era of Good Feelings" either. There wouldn't be this rise in national pride we saw after the war. So we might see the federalists last a little longer possibbly.

IchBinDieKaiser said:

I also think we wouldn't see an "era of Good Feelings" either. There wouldn't be this rise in national pride we saw after the war. So we might see the federalists last a little longer possibbly.

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They "told us so"

One interesting factor not mentioned previously is that if the British win at New Orleans they likely occupy the city, giving them control over the outlet of the Mississippi River. Having just taken it, likely with significant casualties in so doing, they are going to be loathe to relinquish it back to the USA, treaty or no treaty. And if they don't, that's just going to fuel Anglo-phobia in the USA. If the Brits interfere with the acquisition of Florida...which they will be more likely to do if they won at New Orleans and are still holding the city...that's just going to magnify the problem.

The likely outcome of this is that it snaps the USA out of its ridiculous military complacence and we see some serious military reforms and a lot more money poured into the army and navy in the years after the war. Anglo-American relations remain tense for years afterward and eventually there will be a third war...one which is going to be a lot bloodier and difficult for Britain to win. But when might this happen? One scenario...

A chastened America might well start casting about for allies, abandoning Washington's admonition not to be come entangled in foreign alliances. Perhaps they gravitate toward Russia, which will be seeing its own tensions with Britain ramp up over the succeeding decades, culminating in the Crimean War or equivalent in the mid-1850s.

Perhaps the Oregon boundary dispute drags on, due to both British intransigence ("why should we deal with these weak Americans...we kicked their asses last time, after all") and unreasonable American demands due to a national inferiority complex resulting from the trouncing America will have received in the War of 1812, long enough for the Crimean to erupt. Britain, suffering from a serious case of victory disease, ignores the American threat and is shocked when America enters the Crimean War as an ally of Russia, seizes New Orleans and invades Canada again, and also seizes the Oregon Country.

The butterflies from all that could be VERY interesting.

robertp6165 said:

One interesting factor not mentioned previously is that if the British win at New Orleans they likely occupy the city, giving them control over the outlet of the Mississippi River. Having just taken it, likely with significant casualties in so doing, they are going to be loathe to relinquish it back to the USA, treaty or no treaty. And if they don't, that's just going to fuel Anglo-phobia in the USA. If the Brits interfere with the acquisition of Florida...which they will be more likely to do if they won at New Orleans and are still holding the city...that's just going to magnify the problem.

The likely outcome of this is that it snaps the USA out of its ridiculous military complacence and we see some serious military reforms and a lot more money poured into the army and navy in the years after the war. Anglo-American relations remain tense for years afterward and eventually there will be a third war...one which is going to be a lot bloodier and difficult for Britain to win. But when might this happen? One scenario...

A chastened America might well start casting about for allies, abandoning Washington's admonition not to be come entangled in foreign alliances. Perhaps they gravitate toward Russia, which will be seeing its own tensions with Britain ramp up over the succeeding decades, culminating in the Crimean War or equivalent in the mid-1850s.

Perhaps the Oregon boundary dispute drags on, due to both British intransigence ("why should we deal with these weak Americans...we kicked their asses last time, after all") and unreasonable American demands due to a national inferiority complex resulting from the trouncing America will have received in the War of 1812, long enough for the Crimean to erupt. Britain, suffering from a serious case of victory disease, ignores the American threat and is shocked when America enters the Crimean War as an ally of Russia, seizes New Orleans and invades Canada again, and also seizes the Oregon Country.

The butterflies from all that could be VERY interesting.

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I concur. A British victory at New Orleans is going to open up a whole new can of worms. There's probably going to be more negotiations or more fighting over the fate of New Orleans and by extension Louisiana and the Southern Borders of America. Though both parties were War-weary at this point, Britain has the upper hand IMO. Put a competent commander in Canada and reinforce the south (New Orleans and Florida) and America's screwed.

Some argue that the American Victory at New Orleans legitimized the Louisiana Purchase, without it, under the right circumstances, Britain might come to view the Purchase as illegitimate and push for a reversion to pre-Purchase borders.

CHALMETTE PLANTATION, OUTSIDE NEW ORLEANS, 7 JANUARY 1815

General Edward Packenham, commander of the British army tasked with the capture of the American port city of New Orleans, rode into the encampment of the 44th Regiment of Foot in a surly mood. Earlier that day he had ordered the commanding officer of the 44th Foot, Lieutenant Colonel Thomas Mullins, to personally ascertain the location of the fascines and ladders which would be vital in carrying out the next day’s planned assault on the fortifications held by American General Andrew Jackson. But, to his consternation, he had just learned that, instead of going himself, Mullins had sent an engineer officer to locate these vital materials for him.

Packenham had ordered Mullins to go personally because he knew that it was all too likely that Mullins would not be able to locate them in the darkness of the next morning unless he had seen, with his own eyes, where they were located. Mullins, by disobeying orders, had placed Packenham’s entire plan for the next day’s battle in jeopardy.

Insubordination, that’s what it bloody well is, Packenham inwardly fumed as he dismounted from his horse. I could have him on charges for this. But he knew Mullins was, overall, a good officer, and he was disposed to give him another chance. He strode up to Mullins’ tent, and pulled back the flap.

Mullins was sitting on the edge of his camp cot, pouring rum into a tin mug, when Packenham burst in. He quickly set the liquor aside, and stood to attention. Saluting crisply, he exclaimed, “General Packenham! I had not expected to see you again until the morrow!”

Packenham did not return the salute. His voice icy, he said, “I ordered you to PERSONALLY ascertain the location of the fascines and ladders we will be using tomorrow, did I not?”

“Yes…Yes, Sir!,” Mullins stammered.

“Then kindly explain why you assigned an engineer officer to do what I told you to do PERSONALLY!,” Packenham shouted.

Mullins’ face was a mask of fear. He knew he was caught red-handed in gross insubordination. There was a long pause, and then he said, “Sir, I have no explanation. I was in error, and I apologize.”

“You apologize!,” Packenham raged. “Do you not realize how vital those fascines and ladders will be on the morrow? Can you imagine the confusion and delay which would occur if we should try to proceed without them? How many of our brave boys would have died for your ERROR?”

Mullins’ knees were quickly turning to jelly now. “Sir, I beseech you, allow me to rectify my mistake.”

Packenham smiled inwardly, without his face losing any of the sternness which he had fixed upon it. He had Mullins exactly where he wanted him now.

“Colonel Mullins,” he said, “up until now you have been an exemplary officer. And because of that, I am going to grant your request. Go now, and carry out my orders without further delay, and this incident will be forgotten.”

Mullins quickly grabbed his uniform coat and put it back on. Then he picked up his black cocked hat and placed it on his head. Saluting once more, he exclaimed, “Yes, Sir! If you will excuse me, Sir!” before rushing out of the tent. Packenham returned the salute this time, then watched as Mullins found the young engineer officer who had earlier located the fascines and ladders for him, and directed the young man to take him immediately to the location where those items were to be found. The two men mounted their horses, and rode away.

Packenham turned back to Mullins’ cot, where his tin mug and corked clay jug of rum now sat, unused. He picked up the jug, uncorked it, and poured some of the clear liquid into the mug. Lifting it to his lips, he took a sip, and immediately a look of disgust came over his face. Rum was the drink of the common scum who filled the ranks. Officers, men of quality, such as he and Mullins, usually drank port, or brandy. He poured the rum out on the ground, and set the mug and jug back down on Mullins’ cot.

“Well,” he said quietly to himself, “Mullins’ taste for rum aside, he is a good officer.” He yawned. The sun had set well over an hour ago, and the moon was rising. He left Mullins’ tent, and mounted his horse. I still have other errands to complete before I can rest this night, he thought to himself. He urged his horse forward, and rode out of the encampment.

CHALMETTE PLANTATION, 8 JANUARY 1815

On the morning of January 8th, General Andrew Jackson stood, peering over the parapet of his fortifications on the north side of the Rodriguez Canal. Unfortunately, he could see very little.

“Damnation!,” he muttered. “This fog is as thick as pea soup! I couldn’t see a man standing ten paces away from me.” [1]

“Aye, it is,” said Major General William Carroll, standing next to him at the parapet. “But they’re out there. I can hear ’em!”

Indeed, Jackson knew that the Americans had been able to hear the British moving about in the fields south of the canal since well before dawn. There had been bugle calls and drum beats, and the sounds of shouted orders and marching men. Obviously something was going on. Were they about to attack?

Suddenly, they heard the sound of something splashing into the water of the canal. Then they heard more of these noises, whatever they were.

“Here they come!,” Jackson shouted, waving his sword in the air. American soldiers quickly rushed to the parapets, getting ready to fire.

But it was already too late. As Jackson watched, a ladder slammed down against the parapet in front of him, followed quickly by hundreds more all along the line. Within seconds, redcoats were swarming up and over the parapets, bayoneting the hapless Americans and pushing them back.

Jackson soon found himself fighting for his life. He killed one redcoat with a quick thrust of his sword, then fired his pistol into the face of a second who followed the first. But there were too many of them. As he fought with a third redcoat, parrying a bayonet thrust with his sword, another British soldier buried his bayonet in Jackson’s back, twisting it savagely and yanking it out.

Jackson sank to his knees, his eyes wide and his mouth open, blood dribbling down his chin. The last thing he heard was the shout of “Jackson’s dead!,” followed by the sight of his men fleeing the field in disorder, pursued and bayoneted from behind by vengeful redcoats.

“Damn it all,” he gasped, then the world went black, and he collapsed forward onto the ground.

[1] This is the second POD (the first being, of course, that Mullins personally locates the ladders and fascines). In OTL, the fog lifted as the British were approaching the American positions, exposing them to withering artillery and musketry fire. In the ATL, the fog hangs around a bit longer…

robertp6165

I don't know. Baring something like the scenario mentioned by Swan Station in Lycaon's pictus's Dead skunk TL I can't see Britain hanging onto it. After so long at war Britain wants peace and I think the US does now as well. I strongly suspect that Britain would return the territory. [Only other possibility since there was the argument that the initial French taking of the land from Spain was illegitimate, would be if Spain put it's oar in. However it would be open to a demand that Spain repay the money the US paid for Louisiana and I can't see Spain having the funds at this point].

If Britain did keep the region then there could well be another war later on but I think it would be bloody difficult for the US to win. Worsening relations, even with a large measure of complacency by Britain, would hurt the US more than Britain and once the war begins the navy will make it very difficult for the Americans to raise money, move troops etc. Also presuming a Crimean war scenario of course means that Britain and France are allied. While in the event of a sudden US attack on Canada and Louisiana that could well take priority over a crisis in the Black Sea. Britain would have a lot of dead wood in it's military but it would have too much naval, economic, industrial and fiscal strength to be rolled over. It's far more likely that British pride would be angered and a very strong reaction would develop. [A lot would depend on how many areas have developed in the meantime of course. What defences would Britain have on the Mississippi and how much would the US have been able to develop their interior lands with the river dominated by another power?]

Steve

robertp6165 said:

One interesting factor not mentioned previously is that if the British win at New Orleans they likely occupy the city, giving them control over the outlet of the Mississippi River. Having just taken it, likely with significant casualties in so doing, they are going to be loathe to relinquish it back to the USA, treaty or no treaty. And if they don't, that's just going to fuel Anglo-phobia in the USA. If the Brits interfere with the acquisition of Florida...which they will be more likely to do if they won at New Orleans and are still holding the city...that's just going to magnify the problem.

The likely outcome of this is that it snaps the USA out of its ridiculous military complacence and we see some serious military reforms and a lot more money poured into the army and navy in the years after the war. Anglo-American relations remain tense for years afterward and eventually there will be a third war...one which is going to be a lot bloodier and difficult for Britain to win. But when might this happen? One scenario...

A chastened America might well start casting about for allies, abandoning Washington's admonition not to be come entangled in foreign alliances. Perhaps they gravitate toward Russia, which will be seeing its own tensions with Britain ramp up over the succeeding decades, culminating in the Crimean War or equivalent in the mid-1850s.

Perhaps the Oregon boundary dispute drags on, due to both British intransigence ("why should we deal with these weak Americans...we kicked their asses last time, after all") and unreasonable American demands due to a national inferiority complex resulting from the trouncing America will have received in the War of 1812, long enough for the Crimean to erupt. Britain, suffering from a serious case of victory disease, ignores the American threat and is shocked when America enters the Crimean War as an ally of Russia, seizes New Orleans and invades Canada again, and also seizes the Oregon Country.

The butterflies from all that could be VERY interesting.

Click to expand...