American Empire series

[aktarian]

I don't think there is thread for this. If it is....

About 1/2 through The victorious opposition. Have several issues I want to get off my chest and since you are only folks I know who read them or are interested in genre here it goes....

POTENTIAL SPOILERS AHEAD

OK, once again characters are reintroduced. And if that wasn't bad enough they are reintroduced through out the book. I think I read 4 times how Potter did what he did at Olympics and how he ended up where he is. I REMEMBER WHAT HE DID, IT WAS 80 PAGES BACK, DAMNIT. I THINK I HAVE A BIT LONGER MEMORY THAN GOLDFISH.

Events outside N America described only brieflly and only when they affect characters.

Events mirror things from OTL too much. Not just in this book but in entire series. Featherston hates officers and blacks. CSA has rampant inflation. "Freikorps". FP starts small. Featherston seizes power in party. He has hate filled book (altough it wasn't published, I guess Turledove dropped the idea). Is prevented from gaining power right away. Party fades into obscurity. Economic crash makes them strong again. Olympics . "Austria". "Emergency powers" a bit different due to nature of political system in CSA as opposed to Germany. "Night of Long Knives". Camps, initially for political oponents. Public works. As I said I'm about 1/2 through but I sense "Sudetenland" and "Rhineland" already. Featherston isn't excesive in drinking and IIRC doesn't smoke. Has devoted secretary he virtually ignores. "SA" with their own ranks (altough no "SS"). Reintroduction of draft. Featherston gambler who gets his way but lacks strategic perception. Excellent memory for details. Guess making him a painter was too much even for Turtledove.

Altough the problem I see is how CSA will gain upper hand. Germany did it with totally new warfighting doctrine. Here US adopted doctrine that won Germans early victories.

[Xen]

Thats why I gave up on Turtledove's series. The Great War is damn good, so was How Few Remain (though like others I dont know how come nothing what so ever changed in Europe). Some people may talk about Turtledove like he is Alternate History's guru, or god if you will, I personally find him nothing more than an average to a little above average AH'er. Apparently he has never heard of the term "think outside of the box". Nor do I think he has much respect for his readers and their knowledge of history.

[Trotsky]

[QUOTE=aktarian]
Events mirror things from OTL too much. Not just in this book but in entire series. Featherston hates officers and blacks. CSA has rampant inflation. "Freikorps". FP starts small. Featherston seizes power in party. He has hate filled book (altough it wasn't published, I guess Turledove dropped the idea). Is prevented from gaining power right away. Party fades into obscurity. Economic crash makes them strong again. Olympics . "Austria". "Emergency powers" a bit different due to nature of political system in CSA as opposed to Germany. "Night of Long Knives". Camps, initially for political oponents. Public works. As I said I'm about 1/2 through but I sense "Sudetenland" and "Rhineland" already. Featherston isn't excesive in drinking and IIRC doesn't smoke. Has devoted secretary he virtually ignores. "SA" with their own ranks (altough no "SS"). Reintroduction of draft. Featherston gambler who gets his way but lacks strategic perception. Excellent memory for details. Guess making him a painter was too much even for Turtledove.
QUOTE]


Well, Jake's secretary is in her old age, so I would ignore her too. He does drink, and he smokes Habana cigars. And he doesn't really declare the need to have emergency powers, except with the Red guerillas that are basically nill. The stalwarts who wear butternut and white shirts and beat up voters they don't like are the SA analog, and they're the ones who tried to kill him. And there is an SS- Featherston's bodyguards are the ones who have their own ranks, not the stalwarts.

Besides, HT wasn't emulating just Hitler; he also had FDR/New Deal elements in with it: like the TVA, agricultural strides, knocking heads in the Supreme Court, etc. You haven't read all of the book yet, so I won't delve into what else happens, but I do believe that not everything here is a carbon copy of real life

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

Well, Jake's secretary is in her old age, so I would ignore her too. He does drink, and he smokes Habana cigars.

I know he drinks, he isn't teetotaler like hitler but isn't excessive drinker. I forgot about cigars.

Originally Posted by Trotsky

And he doesn't really declare the need to have emergency powers, except with the Red guerillas that are basically nill.

With emergency powers in Germany Hitler removed any obstacles that stood in his goal of absolute power. With repealing of 7 words there isn't anything that can prevnt Featherston from gaining absolute power.

Originally Posted by Trotsky

The stalwarts who wear butternut and white shirts and beat up voters they don't like are the SA analog, and they're the ones who tried to kill him. And there is an SS- Featherston's bodyguards are the ones who have their own ranks, not the stalwarts.

True but camps aren't run by them and they are quite small. Also ranks closelly mirror German translations, altough not positions.

Originally Posted by Trotsky

Besides, HT wasn't emulating just Hitler; he also had FDR/New Deal elements in with it: like the TVA, agricultural strides, knocking heads in the Supreme Court, etc.

I said public works, like Hitler had. Altough not roads but dams.

Originally Posted by Trotsky

You haven't read all of the book yet, so I won't delve into what else happens, but I do believe that not everything here is a carbon copy of real life

Not everything but too much for my taste. aLtough I'm likely to buy next series as well.

At least he got rid of some characters I didn't like.

[Archangel Michael]

The camsp themselves are run by the stalwarts, which I think should be given a name other than 'stalwarts', and same with the party guards. Throughout the Victorious Opposition after the assasination attempt by stalwarts, I was waiting for a version of the Night of the Long Knives.

[ljofa]

There was a kind of Night of the Long Knives when Willy Knight was arrested. The two big fish in OTL paralleling him are Franz von Papen and Ernst Rohm.

To be honest, I can see Willy Knight being a Konrad Adenauer figure being released as the new CSA president after the war.

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by ljofa

To be honest, I can see Willy Knight being a Konrad Adenauer figure being released as the new CSA president after the war.

That is asuming:
A. He survives war
B. CSA looses the war
C. US is willing to have him in power

[Trotsky]

I think that the camps are run by both stalwarts and guards (shouldn't they be capitalized?), but more with guards because the stalwarts are kinda untrustworthy right now. Featherston makes that point several times.

I assumed that if there was an analog to the Rohm Purge, it would be the combination of Willy Knight's resignation and incarceration, and Huey Long's assassination/ CSA invasion of Louisiana. Anyways they both took place in the same year-1938.

And I'm glad there isn't any of that occult nonsense or Aryan "ubermen" crap, with instead just plain Freedom Party rallies and stuff.

In regards to Joseph Goebbels/Saul Goldman, it seems that they have a personality switch: like Goebbels was as fanatic as his Leader, and just as good a speaker, while Goldman just shuffles around and answers Jake's requests with, "Yes, Mr. Featherston." It also seems like no one in the CSA or USA knows just how the CSA's media is run so smoothly, while in the Third Reich Dr. Goebbels was on the air as often as others.

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by ljofa

To be honest, I can see Willy Knight being a Konrad Adenauer figure being released as the new CSA president after the war.

Sorry to reply again in one row, but I ended the last book thinking that Clarence Potter would be in that spot. Now I think that General Potter is the Admiral Canaris analog while i can see Knight as an Adenauer. But then again what was Adenauer's party? Knight was in the Freedom Party, so the victorious USA might would rather set up a Radical Liberal, or perhaps a Whig.

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by Trotsky

I assumed that if there was an analog to the Rohm Purge, it would be the combination of Willy Knight's resignation and incarceration, and Huey Long's assassination/ CSA invasion of Louisiana. Anyways they both took place in the same year-1938.

Lousiana is Austria....

Think about it. Dictator but not of same political party (similar but not same). Refuses to bow to CSA. Persecutes FP members. Is killed. CSA walks in and replaces it's regime with "proper one". I'm not sure but isn't Luisiana more different from other states in US than others (more French influence....). If yes there's another parallel. Very similar countries, but not quite same.

[Trotsky]

Originally Posted by aktarian

Lousiana is Austria....

Think about it. Dictator but not of same political party (similar but not same). Refuses to bow to CSA. Persecutes FP members. Is killed. CSA walks in and replaces it's regime with "proper one". I'm not sure but isn't Luisiana more different from other states in US than others (more French influence....). If yes there's another parallel. Very similar countries, but not quite same.

I suppose so. It does make sense now that I see it that way. Huey Long would make a good analog to E. Dollfuss, but I think that the Kingfish has more charisma and people power than the good Austrian doctor.

[ljofa]

Adenauer - hmmm, former mayor of Köln - I have a feeling he might have been a member of the Catholic Centre Party before it was banned but I'm not sure. As Knight hasn't been privvy to the worst excesses of the Freedom Party, he could be an acceptable leader. I can see Turtledove creating a special forces team springing him from prison to set up a Government in exile where he denounces Featherstone...

[aktarian]

If US goes for party man I'd say it would be Rad Lib. Wigs were in power prior to FP takeover while Rad Libs were mostly on sidelines.

[ljofa]

Depends how magnamimous they feel. USA could absorb the CSA or break it up into 2 or more nations.

[aktarian]

Finished. Tutledove made US all Allies. UK and their apeasing policy. France and attack from unsuspecte side. SU as in bigger but worse military (not to mention kicking in the door metaphore and date of start of attack ).

I think this war will look like E front. CSA will slash toward Philadelphia, will be stoped within sight of it (what's weather like there anyway?) and war will ground on and become war of atrittion. I just wonder which US city will be Stalingrad.

[zoomar]

The Race will show up, befriend the Indians in Sequoyah and nuke Richmond..oh wrong book. They all seem the same.

[Grey Wolf]

I have been thinking long and hard about this series, because it BORES ME RIGID ! I can read only a couple of pages a day. I think the reason is that at least a third of the book is simply social commentary - all the recent chapters up to where I am that feature Chester, Cincinnatus or Sylvia have absolutely NO RELEVANCE to the plot. I know all my criticisms can be turned on their head against my own writing, but I think that the difference is that in AFOE for example the many characters were all used to advance the plot, give a different perspective and let the reader know what was happening somewhere else in the world. By contrast, in American Empire, Turtledove for some reason refuses to set a chapter overseas - he had no problem doing this in the World War series, so why he has now I have no idea. So, instead of seeing what is going on in London or Berlin or France, the additional characters that could have been major players are all designated to be the no-one-very-muches of a North American social history. It may even be 'well written' but I have no interest in Chester's family problems, or in whether Ernie can get it up tonight. If this was a novel by an unknown person the editor would demand that a whole load be slashed out for doing nothing to advance the plot whatsoever

Grey Wolf

[zoomar]

Absolutely right. No novice author would stand a chance with his editor breaking all the rules of effective fiction writing Turtledone does. Thank god Mr. Hemingway finally kills himelf and what's-her-name so we won't have THAT issue to deal with in the next series! A related compaint I have is that he even creates so many essentially similar characters that its hard to keep them straight. Just how many Canadian farmers or U/CS workers do we have to know about? I agree with you, GW, that if he has to do this, at least put some in England, France, Germany so we get a more interesting global perspective.

All of this is a shame, because Turtledove is capable of some interesting speculatoin.

[aktarian]

Grey Wolf, you might want to skip this post as there are many spoilers

Originally Posted by zoomar

Thank god Mr. Hemingway finally kills himelf and what's-her-name so we won't have THAT issue to deal with in the next series!

Unfortunatlly people that die in this book have offspring and we follow their story. So now instead of Sylvia we have her son, instead of Nellie we have her grandson.

Turtledove killed off lot of characters I liked in GW and left ones that were useless outside GW.

Sylvia? After she shot Kimball Turtledove could easilly drop her or significatlly reduce her presence. In Centre cannot hold her character was useless. OK she campaigned for Dems. Kennedy wanted to get in her panties. And that has to do with story how?

Or Nellie? She got married, gave birth and died. OK, in GW she was important, after it, no. One more character who cold be significatlly reduced in presence.

With death of that pharmacist in CSA we lost perspective on how ordinary people lived in CSA and weren't enthusiastic FP members. OK, we have Potter but he is different. We have Cinncinatus who is black and Pinkart who is FP man through and through. If Turtledove was willing to make so many characters in US one more in CSA would be nice.

I was hoping that fanatical christian in GW would live. He would be interesting had he stayed in the army. I could see him becoming at least a colonel. OK, it was war and people had to die. But why keep least interesting characters and kill off good ones?

[Xen]

Originally Posted by Grey Wolf

I have been thinking long and hard about this series, because it BORES ME RIGID ! I can read only a couple of pages a day. I think the reason is that at least a third of the book is simply social commentary - all the recent chapters up to where I am that feature Chester, Cincinnatus or Sylvia have absolutely NO RELEVANCE to the plot. I know all my criticisms can be turned on their head against my own writing, but I think that the difference is that in AFOE for example the many characters were all used to advance the plot, give a different perspective and let the reader know what was happening somewhere else in the world. By contrast, in American Empire, Turtledove for some reason refuses to set a chapter overseas - he had no problem doing this in the World War series, so why he has now I have no idea. So, instead of seeing what is going on in London or Berlin or France, the additional characters that could have been major players are all designated to be the no-one-very-muches of a North American social history. It may even be 'well written' but I have no interest in Chester's family problems, or in whether Ernie can get it up tonight. If this was a novel by an unknown person the editor would demand that a whole load be slashed out for doing nothing to advance the plot whatsoever

Grey Wolf

I agree with this 100%. I lost intrest in this series after World War I ended, that was a good series and the aftermath could have been better written. Id like to see something that goes on in occupied Canada. Defeated France and Russia would be intresting too see more than one chapter set in Brest France. Theres also alot of sex in his books *LOL* I sometimes thinks he goes into too much detail with whose having sex with who and what they are doing during the sexual romp.

I agree your AFOE is much better, I cant wait til you put it back up again. My only complaint was I didnt get to see what was going on in the United States, but other than that its one of the if not the best AH I have ever read.