Sweden A Scandinavian power

[chris N]

Sweden has played a role in the History of Europe. It was one of the Great Powers of Europe up until the Great Northern War. In our time line The Swedish and Russian Empires clashed during that conflict and a young Russian ruler managed to come out on top. Peter was able to build his city on the Baltic and slowly over the centuries Russian power emerged. Sweden's influence in Russia receded. With the Napoleonic Wars the Swedes lost their hold on Finland and were rewarded with Norway as compensation when Denmark happen to be on the losing side with France during the war.
But suppose that things were not so victorious for Peter during the Great Northern War . Instead the Swedish side was able to create a stalemate.
Sweden retained its Empire in the North.
The 19th Century saw additional clashes but there was never enough of a crushing defeat by won side against the other.
As alliances began to take shape during the latter part of the 19th Century it became clear that two alliance systems were forming and a question was emerging as to which side would Sweden join. Russia was Hostile to it and Germany friendly but then Sweden had had good relations with Great Britain during the 19th Century.
Thus Sweden as the most industrial of the Scandinavian Nations was left in a state of attempting to walk the find line.

[chris N]

With the start of the 20th Century things were getting to be more difficult for Sweden. It would seem that the country despite have a greater population and more territory than in Our time line faced a lot of the same problems. The country simply did not have the resources to build and maintain a large military establishment. It had developed the capacity to produce some high quality weapons and was also the most Industrial of the Scandinavian nations. Relations with Norway and Denmark had improved a great deal in the latter 19th Century. The Danish and Norwegian Monarch were Godparents for his son. Still it appeared that neither nation was eager to join with Sweden in a Northern alliance that might suck it into a war with the Russians to the East.
Sweden's relations with Great Britain remained friendly but it would appear that they were moving toward an alliance with France. That was a problem as France had allied itself with the Russians in an effort to stand an excellent chance in a war with Germany.
The Germans had an alliance with Austria-Hungary and to that was added Italy. The Italians were considered to be an odd partner as they had claims on the Territory of the Austro-Hungarian Empire but recently the Italians had felt that the French were a threat to their plans for an Empire in the continent of Africa.
Many in Sweden watch as one crisis after another broke out at the start of the Century. There was a sigh of relief when none of them turned into a wider conflict. The Sweds did find the Balkan war that had just ended to be disturbing. None of the Nations that had been involved was happy with the result. That meant that the Serbs, Greeks, Bukgarians and Albanians as Well as the Turks were upset.
In the Ottoman Empire the Balkan Wars had resulted in the loss of territory so that it had only a tiny foothold still on the European Mainland. There the reformers had taken control of the military and had turned to Germany and Great Britain to help modernize it. Yet once again the Ottoman Empire saw that the threat to theit Empire was More from the Russians to the North.
Sweden intelligence service was well aware that the Russian Czar desired to gabble the Lands that his ancestor Peter had once coveted.

[Mirza Khan]

Wrong board, mate. Needs to go in pre-1900

[chris N]

Actually no this is the correct board as what I gave was background in the first posting and the second posting is in the 20th Century with the Balkan wars of the early part of that century and the forming of the alliance systems in Europe. What this will lead to is the First World War and Swedens possible role in it due to a perceived threat to it from the east.

[ThomasTheviking]

IOT have Sweden compete with the Great powers, you will need to beef up the population figures....even if the Swedes could keep Russia at bay initially....there is to big a discrepancy in manpower.

Furthermore you will always have Denmark and Norway waiting to exploit a weakened Sweden engaged elsewhere (As happened during the Great Northern War)...but this is ofcourse Alternate History ....so everything is possible...but I agree you proberly have to start earlier.....perhaps uniting the Nordic countries under Swedish rule.....which will be different, hence Denmark was the dominant power in the North up to around 1600.

[Grimm Reaper]

If Sweden kept Finland then Denmark will have been allowed to keep Norway following the Napoleonic Wars and Sweden's position as the most powerful Scandinavian country will be far less clear.

Given that Sweden's leaders in the 1600s and early 1700s appeared oblivious to the very concept of not constantly increasing Sweden's list of enemies the odds of Sweden not losing the Baltic territories coveted by Russia are extremely low. With Russia, Poland, Denmark, Prussia, Holland, England and more as enemies it's almost more impressive that Sweden had anything(Finland, Pomerania) left to lose during the Napoleonic Wars.

[chris N]

Sweden had had a population growth spur during the latter part of the 19th century. It had also seen a lot of ethnic Scandinavian leave Russia as a result of the Great Northern war and resettle in Swedish territory.
Still while Sweden and its Imperial territory gave it a larger population than the Sweden in our time line it still was facing a grave threat from the east.
Sweden had lost the Latvian territory but had held on to most of its eastern lands.
Knowing that it did not have the manpower to match the Russians soldier for soldier it attempted to equip its military with the best weapons that it could produce. Sweden had been lucky to have played its card right during the last century. Britain fear of the Russian Bear and its threat to the crown Jewel India had given the Swedes some help. But the world was changing and the threat was greater.
Sweden attempted to convince its fellow Scandinavians to join them in an alliance. Together they could weather the storm that was coming to Europe. Should that fail the Swedish Imperial government would have to see what options it would have.

[Reichenfaust]

Swedish conquest of Norway, and Denmark, is the only way I can see Sweden Being a Great power, and claiming Iceland, and Greenland along with it. Also about manpower, there is no way Sweden can maintain a presence like this without clashing with Russia. Sweden would need more industry, a greater manpower base, and a modern fleet to defend it's massive coastal territory.

[ThomasTheviking]

Originally Posted by Reichenfaust

Swedish conquest of Norway, and Denmark, is the only way I can see Sweden Being a Great power, and claiming Iceland, and Greenland along with it. Also about manpower, there is no way Sweden can maintain a presence like this without clashing with Russia. Sweden would need more industry, a greater manpower base, and a modern fleet to defend it's massive coastal territory.

Conquest is of course one way to go. But an all beneficiary alliance is more preferred, from the Swedish poit of view. Conquering Denmark and Norway is possible....but will result in numerous rebellions. Creating a Swedish led alliance (Like the Kalmar union, just not with Denmark in command) and somehow making all the countries loyal to the higher purpose of "Nordicism" would be the way....sort of a nordic empire ruled from Stockholm....But the POD proberly has to start in the viking period.

[azander12]

Originally Posted by ThomasTheviking

Conquest is of course one way to go. But an all beneficiary alliance is more preferred, from the Swedish poit of view. Conquering Denmark and Norway is possible....but will result in numerous rebellions. Creating a Swedish led alliance (Like the Kalmar union, just not with Denmark in command) and somehow making all the countries loyal to the higher purpose of "Nordicism" would be the way....sort of a nordic empire ruled from Stockholm....But the POD proberly has to start in the viking period.

Well, either that, or you could insert a pan-Nordic intellectual/political movement into history. I don't really know anything about Scandinavia, but is it possible that sometime in the late 1800s or early 1900s a Nordicist movement would form? It would probably by somewhat neo-pagan (or at least very religiously Protestant), quasi-fascist, and irredentist and wanting to regain control over "Nordic" areas like the Shetley and Faroe Islands, Karelia, Ingria, possibly the Baltic states and maybe even Newfoundland. It could lead to some sort of confederation of Scandinavian states, with Sweden as the most powerful taking the lead.

[Grimm Reaper]

A scenario where Sweden decides to conquer Denmark/Norway and invade Russian, Canadian and British territory will involve interesting changes but a powerful Sweden won't be one of them.

A surviving Sweden may not be one of them.

[chris N]

Sweden's King invited his fellow Scandinavian Monarchs and their Prime Ministers to Sweden for a meeting. Sweden's relations with fellow Scandinavians had been improving. It was known that the Danes were quite nervous about Germany and had been ever since the conflict with Prussia and Austria. Norway had once been an objective of Sweden but they had given up that Idea in the 19th century. Norway had admiration for the Kaiser as he had come to their aid in a time of a great disaster. The Kaiser had help to rebuild a Norwegian city but it had no desire to get involved in a European war.
The Swedish King once again appealed to his fellow Scandinavians to prove that there was another way. He proposed a Scandinavian Common Market and it appeared that the idea was beginning to have some appeal.

[Reichenfaust]

Originally Posted by chris N

Sweden's King invited his fellow Scandinavian Monarchs and their Prime Ministers to Sweden for a meeting. Sweden's relations with fellow Scandinavians had been improving. It was known that the Danes were quite nervous about Germany and had been ever since the conflict with Prussia and Austria. Norway had once been an objective of Sweden but they had given up that Idea in the 19th century. Norway had admiration for the Kaiser as he had come to their aid in a time of a great disaster. The Kaiser had help to rebuild a Norwegian city but it had no desire to get involved in a European war.
The Swedish King once again appealed to his fellow Scandinavians to prove that there was another way. He proposed a Scandinavian Common Market and it appeared that the idea was beginning to have some appeal.

Not a bad start for an alliance start. Dates would be appreciated, but i can roughly guess this is right before the Great War.

[chris N]

The Talks were held in the spring of 1912. When Russian troops briefly landed on Norway's island in the North the Norwegian Government finally saw the wisdom of banding together. Denmark finally saw the wisdom of a Scandinavian alliance and as a first step the Common Market treaty was signed. It was followed in June 1912 by the Defensive Alliance treaty. The treaty only bound the members if any of them was attacked by an outside power.

[yourworstnightmare]

1. One problem Sweden had during the Great Nordic War was that EVERYONE ganged up on them. Sweden had to fight Russia, Denmark- Norway, Brandeburg- Prussia, Saxony, Poland- Lithuania and Hannover all at once. Sweden had overstretched and gained too many enemies. Peter the Great's Russia was indeed a threat, but Sweden didn't fall on the Russian threat alone, but on the fact that she had too many enemies and couldn't fight them all at once.

2. You have a PoD in the Great Nordic War in the 18th Century, and you have almost no other butterflies than the Swedish Empire survived? This is quite ASB. A surviving Swedish Empire would create many butterflies. All the Great Powers would have behaved very differently if there had been a Greater Sweden. There would probably had been no Polish partitions if the Russian haven't Estonia and Livonia (or a very different partition). Sweden would probably have had a strong position in the Napoleonic Wars (if they even happened), and Sweden might have joined Denmark or France in the wars against Prussia to stop a German unification (remember, Sweden did hold German lands). No, a surviving Swedish Empire would have influenced the 18th and 19th century a lot, and created many butterflies.

[chris N]

In all likely hood Sweden would have probably emerged from the great Northern war with its position in Germany greatly diminished,but it is likely that the Danes and Norwegians could be held in check.

[yourworstnightmare]

Yes, but if Russia is defeated, and Sweden don't lose Estonia and Livonia the history of Eastern Europe need to be rewritten. The Swedes even held Ingria before the war, and if Sweden manage to hold on to Ingria, well, no St. Petersburg.

[ThomasTheviking]

Originally Posted by azander12

Well, either that, or you could insert a pan-Nordic intellectual/political movement into history. I don't really know anything about Scandinavia, but is it possible that sometime in the late 1800s or early 1900s a Nordicist movement would form? It would probably by somewhat neo-pagan (or at least very religiously Protestant), quasi-fascist, and irredentist and wanting to regain control over "Nordic" areas like the Shetley and Faroe Islands, Karelia, Ingria, possibly the Baltic states and maybe even Newfoundland. It could lead to some sort of confederation of Scandinavian states, with Sweden as the most powerful taking the lead.

Being Scandinavian.....I would say that this is to late in time. There was a nordic movement going around in the late half of the 18th century....but mostly in a "romantic - historical" way focusing on the common background of the Nordic countries. Eventhough Norway was officially part of Sweden until 1905, three distinct national characters have evolved at this stage.....which it why I have been argueing that the POD has to be a lot earlier.

[ThomasTheviking]

Originally Posted by chris N

Sweden's King invited his fellow Scandinavian Monarchs and their Prime Ministers to Sweden for a meeting. Sweden's relations with fellow Scandinavians had been improving. It was known that the Danes were quite nervous about Germany and had been ever since the conflict with Prussia and Austria. Norway had once been an objective of Sweden but they had given up that Idea in the 19th century. Norway had admiration for the Kaiser as he had come to their aid in a time of a great disaster. The Kaiser had help to rebuild a Norwegian city but it had no desire to get involved in a European war.
The Swedish King once again appealed to his fellow Scandinavians to prove that there was another way. He proposed a Scandinavian Common Market and it appeared that the idea was beginning to have some appeal.

Close Nordic cooperation on economic, military and judicial issues has happened....and plausible also at an early stage. But (Like the EU) there is a long way to go, for this to transform itself into a united state, under Swedish dominance.

[chris N]

The New Scandinavian Trade Agreement was the first step in an attempt to improve trade between the Scandinavian countries thus making it easier to compete with the other European countries, It was the first step toward a possible unification of the countries but it was one that had to be taken with great care.
If the Trade agreement had been the easy part the Defense Treaty that was finally signed in Oslo in June of 1912 was the one that caused a lot of concern. Sweden had to deal with a fear that the other two countries were being dragged into the prospect of endless wars. The inserting of the clause that the member states were only bound together if one member was attacked by an outside country hlped to reassure the Danes and the Norwegians that Sweden was not going to start a war with Russia and drag them into it.
Still when the Czarist forces began eying Norway's Islands to the far north it became clear to the Norwegians that only in unity could they hope to dear with the Russian Bear. Once again Sweden had to tread carefully in this matter. A suggestion for the creation of a joint planning staff was approved and a proposal by Sweden to war toward co-operation on weapons development met with some approval. Still Sweden's King was very concern that Europe appeared to be all too close to another war.
One of the Weapons that interested the Swedes was the Danish made Light Machine gun. It expressed an interest in acquiring then for the Swedish Army and suggested that it would be wise if the weapon was adopted by all three members.