What If The Red Army Captures Warsaw in 1920?

[stubear1012]

Here is the third map. Are the three areas the ones that the Czech took from the Poles?

[LOTLOF]

Take the 'corner' where Poland, Germany, and Czechoslovakia all meet. Note the salient in Czech territory north east of the city of Zilina. Draw a line from the tip of the salient running northwest to the German border ending just west of Katowice but not including it. That is roughly the chunk of Polish territory the Czechs have claimed. There is no Czech or Slovak majority there and they have no real historical claim. They simply grabbed it after the Poles collapsed and before the Russians could reach it, a basic land grab.

[stubear1012]

Thank you, this is very helpful.

Stubear1012

[stubear1012]

According to Wiki-Germany did have two small Zeppelins during this time period.

"...the Zeppelin company and DELAG hoped to resume civilian flights quickly. In fact, despite considerable difficulties, they completed two small Zeppelins: LZ 120 Bodensee, which first flew in August 1919 and in the following two years actually transported some 4,000 passengers; and LZ 121 Nordstern, which was envisaged being used on a regular route to Stockholm. However, in 1921, the Allied Powers demanded these two Zeppelins be delivered as war reparations, as compensation for the dirigibles destroyed by their crews in 1919. Further Zeppelin projects could not be realized, partly because of Allied interdiction. This temporarily halted German Zeppelin aviation."




Since their main use is reconnaissance and the fact that they can stay a loft longer than the planes of this time, could they serve as floating observation post far above the fighting? Can they carry a radio set or in some way communicate messages to the commander about enemy troop movements and to the artillery commander with firing coordinates?


I am looking forward to more postings from LOTLOF. I an enjoying this timeline and hope that it is a long one.


Stubear1012

[Adler17]

The understanding with Britain only prohibited multi engine armed planes. Zeppelins are not mentioned. And IMO they can very good used as transport or for reconaissance duties.

Adler

[LOTLOF]

“You know what is expected of you and what our beloved homeland needs of you comrade general.” Trotsky said. “I will concentrate on giving you all the support that I can. The command of the Warsaw Army is yours. Chairman Lenin insists that Berlin be captured as quickly as possible and by the end of the year at the latest. I am counting on you comrade Tukhachevsky.”

Tukhachevsky gave a sharp salute. “Comrade minister I will do everything I can to bring us the victory our glorious state needs!”

Trotsky nodded and looked unhappy. They were surrounded by soldiers. He noticed that only about half of them were wearing military boots. The rest were wearing civilian shoes and a few just kept their feet wrapped in cloth. About a quarter of them had on civilian coats, shirts, or pants. The men who had no duty were just sitting around talking, their rifles left on the ground and in the dirt without care. It was largely an army of illiterate and uneducated peasants whose courage could not be questioned, but whose discipline could fail when there was no officer of commissar nearby. They were a very tough army that would go forward and attack without question no matter how strong the target was. They excelled at carrying out simple clear battle instructions. They did not adapt well to the unexpected, indeed officers from the rank of general down were taught to carry out their orders no matter the circumstances. An officer that showed too much initiative would likely be shot by a commissar. (Regardless of the end results of that initiative.)

These were the men who had beaten the Whites and conquered Poland. Now they were being asked to beat the Germans and take Berlin.

If we had five years to train and really organize the army, if we had enough equipment and a full supply train…

Trotsky could not voice his concerns. This army was the Soviet Union’s top priority and was being given everything available. Arms production was still crippled and it would take time to sort things out. Until then they had what they had.

It would have to do.

“You have my complete trust comrade general. Be ruthless against this enemy and bring us victory!”

XXX

Though they were already at a state of war, though they had all known what was coming, it still took a few hours of Tukhachevsky to assemble all of his field commanders and sort out a marching order. Tukhachevsky had a staff of course, but they had been more concerned with food supplies and the army’s morale rather than planning the actual invasion.

Not having military maps they had resorted to local ones that had been in a tourist agency in Pozen. The plans Tukhachevsky and his staff came up with were rudimentary to say the least. Since Berlin was the goal and there was no real possibility of deception the army had assembled in the polish territory closest to the German capitol. They would drive westward, capture Frankfurt and then Berlin. The enemy forces they encountered would simply have to be overwhelmed through sheer numbers. Lacking intelligence on enemy numbers and dispositions they would just have to force their way through.

Tukhachevsky summed it up with a single word. “Nichevo.”

Late in the afternoon the first units of the half million strong Warsaw Army stumbled over the border in the vicinity of Zbąszyń. A long steady stream of men, horses, and wagons followed. There was a wide well-made road and train tracks that they could follow all the way to Berlin.

About a mile into enemy territory some of the lead units skirmished with some German cavalry. Men marching along the road tripped over some mines causing a handful of deaths and casualties. German planes were constantly overhead and unchallenged. They dropped bombs but no longer came down on strafing runs.

These were nothing more than annoyances. The Russians pushed on, their lines stretching back miles all the way to the border. Slow but steady they marched westward.

Squads of soldiers hurried to each little farmhouse or home they passed along the way. They were to inform the locals they were now under the protection of the Soviet government and had been liberated from the capitalist oppression of their previous government. They were also to requisition food and anything else they might need.

The soldiers were disappointed to find all these residences already abandoned. The crops had been harvested and the livestock driven off. The Russian conscripts had to satisfy themselves with stealing clothes and whatever knick knacks they found. The officers allowed a few of the homes to be burned to make the men happy and to punish the locals who had fled.

The first village they came to was a community with a single general store and no more than a dozen neatly kept houses. Like the previously encountered farmhouses these were also abandoned. There was no sight of panicked flight as inside the homes the beds were still neatly made and plates and cups were stacked in cupboards.

Besides the lack of inhabitants the only unusual aspect to the village was a series of notices that had been put up on every door and was written in both German and Russian.

One of these quickly found its way to Tukhachevsky’s hands.

‘I swear by God this sacred oath to offer up my life in the defense of my homeland. I shall not rest until the invaders have been driven from our sacred soil. I shall not rest until the German people are saved and may once more live in peace and security. I shall not rest until our beloved homeland is rescued and our national honor is restored. I swear before all mighty God that no matter the sacrifice required I shall never permit my country to be conquered. May my soul be cursed for all time if I break this sacred vow.’

THIS OATH HAS BEEN TAKEN BY PRESIDENT EBERT, COMMANDER AND CHIEF GROENER AS WELL AS EVERY MEMBER OF THE GOVERNMENT AND THE ARMY. AS ONE WE ARE SWORN TO DEFEND THE FATHERLAND WITH OUR VERY LIVES. WITH GOD’S BLESSING WE SHALL TRIUMPH.

Tukhachevsky looked at the members of his staff and laughed as he crumpled up the paper and threw it away. “The Germans love taking oaths don’t they? It will take a lot more than that to scare us though, eh comrades?”

His men all nodded and laughed. So far the war against the Germans had been easier than they’d ever imagined.

That ended the next day.

[LordCalner]

This is exciting as hell! wonder how the soviets will fare?

[Adler17]

Very nice update! Also the village just taken could be Neu Bentschen, a village built as railway hub and tariff station in 1919 as the old one, Bentschen, became Polish. I am looking forward to the battle of Schwiebus (assuming the Soviets advance on Berlin directly).
BTW: I don't think Trotzki had loughed after reading it.

Adler

[LOTLOF]

Alder 17

The maps I am able to find on line don't show any towns between Bentschen and the Obra River. The next city I find is Schweibus west of the Obra. Would you happen to know of any towns or villages that are east of the river on or near the main road?

I would apprecaite any help as I am trying ro keep things as factual as possible where physical locations are involved.

[Adler17]

Originally Bentschen, pol. Zbaszyn, was a railway station on the railway route Berlin-Warsaw-Moscow. Because of Versailles the town was lost. So a new village was founded as railway and tariff station. That was in 1919.
Between Schwiebus and Neu Bentschen there was the village Stentsch. There was also the small town Groß Dammer less than 10 km north and Bomst 10 km south of it.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...Posen_1905.png

This is the best map I could find. It is pre ww1, so that you can't see Neu Bentschen, which is south of Groß Dammer. You can also see the nationalities of Posen of pre ww1 on this map.

Adler

[stevep]

Guys

This is going to be messy but I would back the Germans. They have a lot of troops with experience of high intensity conflict while their defending their homes. The Soviets have basically a horde and if at any point the control of the commissars breaks down a lot would probably seek to escape. The Germans should be able to get somewhat better than equality in terms of quality of weapons as well as organisation. If they can get a few units with WWI level of equipment then the Soviets are likely to be slaughtered.

Steve

[Adler17]

The Germans had much time to prepare and the attack from Bentschen has absolutely no surprise. That's why I guess the Germans had built ww1 style trench systems of at least three lines near Schwiebus. Backed with artillery such a line is hardly being able to be taken. I mean the first line. If they have only six shells per gun and 30 per rifle, if all had so much ammo, it is not really possible. The Russians will throw wave after wave on the defense lines. In the end, when they are exhausted, the Germans will make a counter offensive. But not only from Schwiebus but more from Pommerania and from Silesia (here the Poles could retake Tschenstochau as a task) and try to encircle the Soviet army. Schwiebus might become a synonym like Stalingrad in OTL.

Adler

P.S.: I just read a few hours ago the German navy had 2 CL and 11 TB ready for action in 1920. All other ships left were to be restored (a few) or scrapped (most of them). If the British not acted they would have no chance against the Soviets.

[LOTLOF]

September 30, 1920

The Army came slowly to life and about an hour after sunrise began to slowly snake forward. The airplanes who were the Warsaw Army’s constant companions were already overhead. As they slowly trudged westward the Russians encountered no resistance. Even the cavalry screen appeared to be gone.

As they pushed on through the chilly morning they once more discovered an abandoned countryside. Every village. every house, every silo was empty. The same notices were posted on almost every door. Telephone and telegraph poles had been cut down. The rails from the railroad tracks had been removed. Along with the entire population the harvest and livestock had all vanished as well. Other than that there was no destruction at all, the buildings and roads were all in pristine condition.

As the army went different squads entered into homes and buildings to search for any spies that might have been left behind as well as for anything that might be valuable to the army. The lucky few who went on these searches looted whatever they could. There were no piles of marks or banknotes or hidden stashes of jewels or even silverware. The men stole clothes, bed sheets, drapes, frying pans, bowls, plates, candleholders… they took almost anything they could carry off. Some of the officers granted permission to burn down the homes. As the army slowly moved westward black smoke rose to mark its progress.

The men had been very clearly instructed by their officers and commissars that any civilians they encountered were to be treated with mercy so long as they were not caught with arms. Rape was absolutely forbidden and any soldiers who were found guilty of it would be hanged. Once this country was liberated the Germans would become their brothers in arms. That would be made easier if they avoided unnecessary unpleasantness. The world press would also be looking on, and while honest reports from the corrupt capitalist news agencies were of course not to be expected, it was wise not to give them any fuel their propaganda. German, French, Italian, British and other papers were filled with wild tales from the Polish refugees. These were turning people who should have supported the Soviet Union’s benign liberation into opponents.

While the Red Army would not hesitate to do what was necessary to support itself and suppress any sort of revolt by locals, they would make an effort to direct the terror only on those who warranted it. The commissars did have orders to get rid of all ‘unreliables’ who fell into their hands. (The list of victims would be similar as to those in Bavaria.) However this was to be done more discreetly. The commissars had been given broad authority to determine who might be an unreliable. These men would be arrested and sent off to camps in the rear to be held in captivity until the end of the struggle.

Even the soldiers in the army would be made to believe that. In fact these men would be handed over to Cheka units and done away with in some quiet spot. Their class enemies would be eliminated while avoiding all the talk of massacre that had harmed the efforts in Bavaria.

As the Warsaw Army continued to gradually slog forward its commander was growing more and more uneasy. Tukhachevsky could not share his concerns with anyone, even an army commander did not dare to sound defeatist. As morning turned to afternoon with still no sign of opposition everyone seemed to be of the opinion that the Germans were too terrified to fight and had simply fled. In Tukhachevsky’s opinion anyone who would believe that after having fought the Germans was an utter ass.

The simple orderliness of the German withdrawal was what worried him. In Russia the crops would either be left behind of hastily burned. Half the locals would have fled and half would have stayed. The roads would be clogged with refugees and there would be dead horses and broken down wagons all along the road. Tukhachevsky had seen all this for himself a thousand times during the civil war and again in Poland.

Here it was completely different.

The withdrawal had obviously been organized and the civilians must have acted just as obediently as soldiers would have. Even the way every door had a single poster with that damn oath on it spoke of German efficiency and planning. It would not have surprised him to learn the Germans had given more thought into their withdrawal than he had been able to give to his advance. None of that spoke of panic or low morale. Tukhachevsky was quite sure the Germans were not going to let them just walk into Berlin. He was still completely unsure where or when they would face the Germans; but was convinced they would be ready to fight.

Midafternoon the lead elements of the Warsaw Army finally found them

XXX

The city of Stentsch had a population of roughly fifty thousand. It was a typical provincial town that happened to be on the road and rail line running between Pozen and Frankfurt. It sprawled over both banks of the small but fast flowing Obra River. It was just a small German city located on the eastern edges of Brandenburg near what had become the Polish border.

It had been transformed into a fortress and would be the sight of the first great battle of the Eastern War. No fewer than six trench lines had been dug in front of the city. Each ran in a concave curve ending on the banks of the Obra. There were thick belts of barbed wire before each line with those in front of the primary one being more than twenty yards thick. Every mine that could be found or hastily manufactured had been plated in front of that first trench line. Close to a thousand field guns had been dug in either right behind the lines or on the west bank of the river. For days prior the crews had been firing their weapons and sighting them. Telephone lines ran from observation posts to each battery and the Germans had worked on swiftly adjusting their fire for maximum effect. The flying scouts above them all had radios and their observations could be relayed to artillery officers within just ten minutes.

Along with a footbridge and rail bridge that had originally been here there were six pontoon bridges that allowed swift and easy movement of supplies and reinforcement. If necessary a retreat could be carried out just as quickly. All eight bridges had been dynamited and could be blown up from the western bank with just a pull of a lever.

On the river itself were two squads of monitors that patrolled north and south of the bridges. These were civilian river boats that had been requisitioned by the military and hastily covered with some steel plate. The boats were riddled with machine guns and one or two turrets with .37 or .50 field guns welded on. They were manned by civilian crews and army volunteers. These boats were hasty creations and looked it, but they would make any attempt at a river crossing even more difficult.

Manning these lines and being held in reserve were seven Reichswehr infantry divisions with about ninety thousand men available. The trench lines were bristling with Maxim machine guns, all with plenty of belts of ammunition close at hand. The soldiers were veterans and had all sworn the oath. Their morale was extremely high and they were eager to come to grips with this enemy.

The first Russian units to come into view had stopped out of machine gun range amid the many shell craters. The men and officers had not been given clear instructions on what to do and so did nothing as they sent reports back and waited for orders.

XXX

Up in a church tower on the eastern side of the city Field Marshal August von Mackensen watched the arrival if the Russian Army and saw them simply congregate out in the open. He had spent the entire war commanding troops on the Eastern Front and had been awarded the Pour le Mérite, the famed Blue Max, Imperial Germany’s highest military honor. He had fought at Tannenberg, won battles in Poland, Rumania, the Ukraine, and in Russia. No other German general had won more battles against the Russians. The Field Marshal was seventy and had recently retired. When President Ebert had called upon him to return to service and defend the Fatherland the Field Marshal had set aside his distaste for the republic and agreed. Monarchist or republican this was a time for all Germans to rally together and fight shoulder to shoulder.

Lowering his binoculars the mustached and somber general turned to his staff. “The Russians have come to pay us a visit. Let us give them a proper German greeting.”

A telephone was in the church tower. A captain picked it up and quickly relayed the Field Marshal’s orders.

Ten minutes later ALL the German field guns opened fire at once. The Russians caught out in the open had nowhere to hide and were slaughtered. The two Soviet regiments that had first arrived suffered over ninety percent casualties in less than half an hour.

XXX

Late in the afternoon Tukhachevsky arrived and observed the defenses of Stentsch as carefully as he could from a nearby hill top. Coming up he had been surprised to hear the distant shelling and had been more than a little worried listening to its intensity and duration. It was blatantly obvious the Germans were not worried about expending shells.

Seeing what a strong position it was Tukhachevsky’s first instinct was to call a halt and withdraw in order to try and find another invasion route. He was however all too aware of his orders to take Berlin as quickly as possible regardless of loss. He was also aware of commissar Kudov who was always present. To withdraw without even fighting might look defeatist. It might look contrary to the orders he had received. Despite his misgivings he knew there was only one decision to be made.

“Tomorrow, as soon as we have the entire army up, we attack.”

[LOTLOF]

Adler 17 thanks for the info.

[LordCalner]

this....this this excitement is unbeareable! ....you sir are an awesome writer!

[historyfool]

Great update. The Red army will get its ass kicked and Tukhachevskys career will probably come to an end. This will be a real loss for the USSR as he was imo one of the best officers they ever had. And it is not even fair to blame him as he had no real choice but to do what will be a disaster for his army.

[trekchu]

Am I the only one who thinks that the arms restrictions (at least on land and in the air) will begin to evaporate as the war goes on? This may have been touched upon already, but I couldn't be bothered reading all of the comments.

[informationfan]

Originally Posted by LOTLOF

September 30, 1920

The Army came slowly to life and about an hour after sunrise began to slowly snake forward. The airplanes who were the Warsaw Army’s constant companions were already overhead. As they slowly trudged westward the Russians encountered no resistance. Even the cavalry screen appeared to be gone.

As they pushed on through the chilly morning they once more discovered an abandoned countryside. Every village every house every silo was empty. The same notices were posted on almost every door. Telephone and telegraph poles had been cut down. The rails from the railroad tracks had been removed. Along with the entire population the harvest and livestock had all vanished as well. Other than that there was no destruction at all, the buildings and roads were all in pristine condition.

As the army went different squads went into the homes and buildings to search for any spies that might have been left behind as well as for anything that might be valuable to the army. The lucky few who went on these searches looted whatever they could. There were no piles of marks or banknotes or hidden stashes of jewels or even silverware. The men stole clothes, bed sheets, drapes, frying pans, bowls, plates, candleholders… they took almost anything they could carry off. Some of the officers granted permission to burn down the homes. As the army slowly moved westward black smoke rose to mark its progress.

The men had been very clearly instructed by their officers and commissars that any civilians they encountered were to be treated with mercy so long as they were not caught with arms. Rape was absolutely forbidden and any soldiers who were found guilty of it would be hanged. Once this country was liberated the Germans would become their brothers in arms. That would be made easier if they avoided unnecessary atrocities. The world press would also be looking on, and while honest reports from the corrupt capitalist news agencies were of course not to be expected, it was wise not to give them any stories to fuel their propaganda. German, French, Italian, British and other papers were filled with wild tales from the Polish refugees. These were only turning people who should have supported the Soviet Union’s benign liberation into opponents.

While the Red Army would not hesitate to do what was necessary to support itself and suppress any sort of revolt by locals, they would make an effort to direct the terror only on those who warranted it. The commissars did have orders to get rid of all ‘unreliables’ who fell into their hands. (The list of victims would be similar as to those in Bavaria.) However this was to be done more discreetly. The commissars had been given broad authority to determine who might be an unreliable. These men would be arrested and sent off to camps in the rear to be held in captivity until the end of the struggle.

Even the soldiers in the army would be made to believe that. In fact these men would be handed over to Cheka units and done away with in some quiet spot. Their class enemies would be eliminated while avoiding all the talk of massacre that had harmed the efforts in Bavaria.

As the Warsaw Army continued to gradually slog forward its commander was growing more and more uneasy. Tukhachevsky could not share his concerns with anyone, even an army commander did not dare to sound defeatist. As morning turned to afternoon with still no sign of opposition everyone seemed to be of the opinion that the Germans were too terrified to fight and had simply fled before them. In Tukhachevsky’s opinion anyone who would believe that after having fought the Germans was an utter ass.

The simple orderliness of the German withdrawal was what worried him. In Russia the crops would either be left behind of hastily burned. Half the locals would have fled and half would have stayed. The roads would be clogged with refugees and there would be dead horses and broken down wagons all along the road. Tukhachevsky had seen all this for himself a thousand times during the civil war and again in Poland.

Here it was completely different.

The withdrawal had obviously been organized and the civilians must have acted just as obediently as soldiers would have. Even the way every door had a single poster with that damn oath on it spoke of German efficiency and planning. It would not have surprised him to learn the Germans had given more thought into their withdrawal than he had been able to give to his advance. None of that spoke of panic or low morale. Tukhachevsky was quite sure the Germans were not going to let them just walk into Berlin. He was still completely unsure where or when they would face the Germans; but was convinced they would be ready to fight.

Midafternoon the lead elements of the Warsaw Army finally found them

XXX

The city of Stentsch had a population of roughly fifty thousand. It was a typical provincial town that happened to be on the road and rail line running between Pozen and Frankfurt. It sprawled over both banks of the small but fast flowing Obra River. It was just a small German city located on the eastern edges of Brandenburg near what had become the Polish border.

It had been transformed into a fortress and would be the sight of the first great battle of the Eastern War. No fewer than six trench lines had been dug in front of the city. Each ran in a concave curve ending on the banks of the Obra. There were thick belts of barbed wire before each line with those in front of the primary one being more than twenty yards thick. Every mine that could be found or hastily manufactured had been plated in front of that first trench line. Close to a thousand field guns had been dug in either right behind the lines or on the west bank of the river. For days prior the crews had been firing their weapons and sighting them. Telephone lines ran from observation post to each battery and the Germans had worked on swiftly adjusting their fire for maximum effect. The flying scouts above them all had radios and their observations could be relayed to artillery officers within just ten minutes.

Along with a footbridge and rail bridge that had originally been here there were six pontoon bridges that allowed swift and easy movement of supplies and reinforcement. If necessary a retreat could be carried out just as quickly. All eight bridges had been dynamited and could be blown up from the western bank with just a pull of a lever.

On the river itself were two squads of monitors that patrolled north and south of the bridges. These were civilian river boats that had been requisitioned by the military and hastily covered with some steel plate. The boats were riddled with machine guns and one or two turrets with .37 or .50 field guns welded on. They were manned by civilian crews and army volunteers. These boats were hasty creations and looked it, but they would make any attempt at a river crossing even more difficult.

Manning these lines and being held in reserve were seven Reichswehr infantry divisions with about ninety thousand men available. The trench lines were bristling with Maxim machine guns, all with plenty of belts of ammunition close at hand. The soldiers were veterans and had all sworn the oath. Their morale was extremely high and they were eager to come to grips with this enemy.

The first Russian units to come into view had stopped out of machine gun range amid the many craters out beyond the minefields and belts of wire. The men and officers had not been given clear instructions on what to do and so did nothing as they sent reports back and waited for orders.

XXX

Up in a church tower on the eastern side of the city Field Marshal August von Mackensen watched the arrival if the Russian Army and saw them simply congregate out in the open. He had spent the entire war commanding troops on the Eastern Front and had been awarded the Pour le Mérite, the famed Blue Max, Imperial Germany’s highest military honor. He had fought at Tannenberg, won battles in Poland, Rumania, the Ukraine, and in Russia. No other German general had won more battles against the Russians. The Field Marshal was seventy and had recently retired. When President Ebert had called upon him to return to service and defend the Fatherland the Field Marshal had set aside his distaste for the republic and agreed. Monarchist or republican this was a time for all Germans to rally together and fight shoulder to shoulder.

Lowering his binoculars the mustached and somber general turned to his staff. “The Russians have come to pay us a visit. Let us give them a proper German greeting.”

A telephone was in the church tower. A captain picked it up and quickly relayed the Field Marshal’s orders.

Ten minutes later ALL the German field guns opened fire at once. The Russians caught out in the open had nowhere to hide and were slaughtered. The two Soviet regiments that had first arrived suffered over ninety percent casualties in less than half an hour.

XXX

Late in the afternoon Tukhachevsky arrived and observed the defenses of Stentsch as carefully as he could from a nearby hill top. Coming up he had been surprised to hear the distant shelling and had been more than a little worried listening to its intensity and duration. It was blatantly obvious the Germans were not worried about expending shells.

Seeing what a strong position it was Tukhachevsky’s first instinct was to call a halt and withdraw in order to try and find another invasion route. He was however all too aware of his orders to take Berlin as quickly as possible regardless of loss. He was also aware of commissar Kudov who was always present. To withdraw without even fighting might look defeatist. It might look contrary to the orders he had received. Despite his misgivings he knew there was only one decision to be made.

“Tomorrow, as soon as we have the entire army up, we attack.”

Hello,

i like it, but have some problems with it...

as you describe it the germans concentrate a big part of its force in one small area... and the russians are dumb-asses that move into death without thinking...
i think, with no german troops, they advance fast with recons and - finding the position strong defended try to round them...

as i read your last post it seems the russians use the "nazi-in-a-warmovie"-method (allways looking in the wrong direction, clumpsy, stupid, brutal)...
also, i doubt the germans use so much artillery against 2 regiments of russian infantry...

the next thing i have problems with is, that the russians will attack without preparation.... they are ill trained, not brain-dead.
even the polit-officer will not be so dumb... they want to take berlin, not to die in the try...

any average officer in this situation would try to flank this position, if the germans are so ultra-strong at this position, try it at another one... they cannot be strong at every position. You make the russians to weak...

i suggest they scout and finding out how strong the germans are, dig in far enough to not be wiped ot, near enough to have no long movement to the first german line...

in the same time, most troops would move left/right of this position

if the reds attack in the way you describe, they got anhilated... latest in the counter attack - the reds can not fight back.

so they need to dig in, at last 2 or 3 layers thick... to have shelter against the strong german artillery... to do this they need do stay away enough kilometers (germans have only small calibres with short range)... this is the way i (a dumb non-general-staff-officer) would do it.
But you have Tukhachevsky, russias best and intelligentest army officer... he will know how to handle it. (he still could be defeated, but at last his troops will fight smart(er)

i hope i do not insult you with this critics... it is well written and i love it... i just think you let the russians act like fools... they aren´t...

Another idea:
let them fake the attack - make them try to move around with strong troops... if the germans try to counter this (they have to), attack at the strongest point - if the russians take this fortress this would be a desaster for the germans... but also they could force the brits (and french) to give weapons for free

But - as i wish to make clear - it is a great timeline...

greetings

[Adler17]

Although I agree about the flanking, we should not forget one thing. In OTL Schukow made exactly this mistake. He wasn't dumb either. However, he had the order to attack Berlin. And although the Soviets broke through the lines in Silesia, Schukow attacked the very same way. At the point next to Berlin. Seelow. The battle of Seelow Heights. And if Heinrici had the forces he needed and the Soviet did not break through in Silesia we might had seen a similar result OTL, too. The Soviets would have been too exhausted to act further and likely the US would have ended in taking Königsberg.

Adler

[informationfan]

Originally Posted by Adler17

Although I agree about the flanking, we should not forget one thing. In OTL Schukow made exactly this mistake. He wasn't dumb either. However, he had the order to attack Berlin. And although the Soviets broke through the lines in Silesia, Schukow attacked the very same way. At the point next to Berlin. Seelow. The battle of Seelow Heights. And if Heinrici had the forces he needed and the Soviet did not break through in Silesia we might had seen a similar result OTL, too. The Soviets would have been too exhausted to act further and likely the US would have ended in taking Königsberg.

Adler

well,

we are in 1920, not otl 1945...
and in the moment the russians are as smart as dumb apes... also, if the germans concentrate 1000 guns, they ARE weak in other areas...

sure, the order to take berlin is given - but not HOW it is to be taken (that is a Hitler-way... here we have just the order "take it")
flanking is not forbidden... i do not say that the germans could counter this, but i think a fortress to strong to be taken is best avoided... and the russians have their best general... he ist not allenby or some other brain dead british general, but the best thinking machine of the russian army. i doubt that he throw away his forces.. so a big strike against well prepared defence lines is not only self murder (the russians do not even dig in... so any failed attack cost em the whole army!) but plain stupid
stalin would be so stupid, right. but not this guy... the red manstein. +
the russians lack artillery, so they need numbers and surprise... if the enemy is so strong they will not attack.

At last this is my strong opinion...

speaking about 1945... at seelow the germans could strike back the last time... true... but even if you replace the poor quality troops and raise the numbers, the germans are doomed. because if henrici have them, they are missed else... so the other russian front can take it easily... so no us army taking königsberg (by the way, it was allready taken in april 15...)

the german army was utterly destroyed and lacked good leaders (most are dead or without a job, take model aside you have no real Heeresgruppen-comander.. and the situation is helpless... even if you equip em with 400 LeopardIIA6 you can only make the enemies losses higher, but the defeat is 100% sure...

without the ardennes, with a better retreat in autum 1944 in the west and without the canne in the east with HG mitte in june 44, you could make a good defence... but for that you have to kill hitler earlier... that is asb...