Jewishness with out the holocaust

[black angel]

so if the Nazis never came to power in Germany, no WWII and no holocaust what would Jewish life look like? would Eastern European Jews still move to Israel, Zionism still being around and all, if not would a Jewish state be founded, if so what would it look like? what becomes of the Middle Eastern/North African Jews?

[Finn]

Israel without the Holocaust? Incredibly unlikely.

There would be more antisemitism, unfortunately, with people less aware of the dangers. Sure there would be records of pogroms for people to point to, but the OTL tragedy of the Holocaust is something that tends to shut up all but the most hateful of antisemites.

The Middle Eastern Jews probably stay where they are until the Middle East gets too reactionary, and then I imagine they'd mostly go to Europe, with a smaller number going to America.

[black angel]

Originally Posted by Finn

Israel without the Holocaust? Incredibly unlikely.

well, between 1882-1903, 32,000 Jews came to Israel, 1904-1914, 40,000 Jews, 1919-1923 sees another 40,000, 1923-1929 see 82,000 Jews, its hard to say what this TL's 5th Aliyah would look like.

[Finn]

Originally Posted by black angel

well, between 1882-1903, 32,000 Jews came to Israel, 1904-1914, 40,000 Jews, 1919-1923 sees another 40,000, 1923-1929 see 82,000 Jews, its hard to say what this TL's 5th Aliyah would look like.

But a separate, primarily Jewish state at Palestine's expense? I don't think it likely.

[glenn67]

With no Holocaust, the British mandate of Palestine would probably lead to Dominion status or at least a Republic of Palestine with a power sharing agreement between the Jews and majority Arab population.

Eckener's "The Airship Legacy" had a paragraph dealing with the Palestine issue.

[black angel]

Originally Posted by Finn

But a separate, primarily Jewish state at Palestine's expense? I don't think it likely.

I think it'd be much smaller, centered around Tel Aviv maybe, that or a long drawn out civil war between the two sides.

[azander12]

Originally Posted by glenn67

With no Holocaust, the British mandate of Palestine would probably lead to Dominion status or at least a Republic of Palestine with a power sharing agreement between the Jews and majority Arab population.

Eckener's "The Airship Legacy" had a paragraph dealing with the Palestine issue.

Agreed. The Jews, like in much else of the world, would form the merchant class between the Arab peasants and aristocracy.

[Monty Burns]

Iould imagine serious tensions between the large group of estern European, conservative Jews (several million spread over all eastern European countries) and the groups of more liberal Jews in western Europe and north America. Overall, influence of the Jiddish communities will be much stronger.

Considering the middle East, I think there'll be a state encompassing OTL Palestine and Jordan, with large Jewish and christian communities. That state has a serious chance of being quite wealthy due to tourism and modernization brought by Jewish investors and immigrants. On the other side, Arab states have a very bad record economically. A corrupt local Baath-like regime is also quite likely.

Overall I would expect islamism to be less of a problem, in particular in those countries without oil. After all, Syria and that Palestine-Jordan state should be of minor interest in world politics and therefore not that affected by western interventions and repeated military defeats. So some of the reasons for radicalization are butterflied away - or rather to say, radicalization is aimed at the corrupt local elites, which to support the west has a lot less reason.

[usertron2020]

The strengthening of Anti-Semitism is possible, at least on local levels. For such people as the KKK. After WWII anti-semites had to watch their words to avoid being labelled "Nazi" as the world at large was still in a state of horror and shock at what was found in the camps. Eastern Europe would probably be worse.

But as I found myself (I wasn't around until the 60s) in later years, whenever I saw media events (films, mini-series', famous novels, plays) highlighting the Holocaust, I could expect to hear anti-semites bitch royally about how it was "ancient history" and why did everybody keep having to go on about it!? How supremely frustrating it must have been to be a devout anti-semite on VE-Day.

[Maponus]

Originally Posted by azander12

Agreed. The Jews, like in much else of the world, would form the merchant class between the Arab peasants and aristocracy.

Which is exactly the kind of thing Zionism is supposed to avoid. The whole point of Zionism is the escape from being a group within a larger society, the idea that Jews will develop into a nation of their own. Many Zionist leaders weren't even Jews by religion, they were secluar nationalists, leftists and even the occasional Nietzsche reading quasi-Fascist. They are never going to settle for second best (ie religious freedom), it doesn't fit the ideology that Jews be a community, they must be a state.

It's possible you'd see a reversal of roles, with Arabs on top beating down a weak but unrelentingly extremist Jewish resistance, making life hell for the average Jew.

[Valdemar II]

Honstly while Israel may be weaker, it will still be born, even before large number of German-Jewish refugees fleed to Palestinia, there was a growing tension and plans for splitting Palestinia. I personal think we will see the North and coast down to Tel Aviv under Jewish control, Jerusalem and a coridor the south of Jaffa (while Jaffa become a Arab exclave) under international control and the rest under Arab control

[MerryPrankster]

Originally Posted by Monty Burns

Iould imagine serious tensions between the large group of estern European, conservative Jews (several million spread over all eastern European countries) and the groups of more liberal Jews in western Europe and north America. Overall, influence of the Jiddish communities will be much stronger.

That works. The impression I've got is that the Nazis destroyed the most religious of the Jewish communities due to where they were.

If there's a continuing stream of Eastern European Jews coming to America due to smaller-action misbehaviors, American Judaism might be more conservative and more ethnic.

And more Yiddish too. Yiddish in America is dying out (mostly), but the "continuing stream" might replenish it.

[Tree151]

Not having the holocaust happen doesn't mean that anti-semitism simply goes away and the Jews live happily ever after in a tolerant and peace-loving Europe. Actually, it was the holocaust that made Europe so shocked from the effects of anti-semitism that it started working actively against it.

The Zionist movement remains mostly unchanged, you'll still see a lot of Jews fleeing Europe and it's continuing pogroms and anti-semitism, and you'll have quite the reverse effect from stopping the creation of Israel - a lot of Jews who died in OTL in the holocaust will instead leave for Palestine and there will be a Jewish majority even sooner.

[MerryPrankster]

Tree151,

They might also go to America. Without the Holocaust, the whole "we can never be safe as minorities again" attitude may never come to exist.

[Tree151]

Originally Posted by MerryPrankster

Tree151,

They might also go to America. Without the Holocaust, the whole "we can never be safe as minorities again" attitude may never come to exist.

Some might. But don't forget that the Zionist movement was going pretty well way before WWII, and a lot of Jews will probably decide that Europe isn't safe enough for them after so many pogroms and that they want to live in the promised land, where a lot of other Jews are already settling in.

And who is to say that since Hitler didn't come into power, some other anti-semitic wacko in another country wont come into power and exterminate the Jews in his country instead? If you would ask people in the 30s where they think the holocaust would happen if it were to happen, Germany wouldn't be on top of the list.

[Faeelin]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

Honstly while Israel may be weaker, it will still be born, even before large number of German-Jewish refugees fleed to Palestinia, there was a growing tension and plans for splitting Palestinia. I personal think we will see the North and coast down to Tel Aviv under Jewish control, Jerusalem and a coridor the south of Jaffa (while Jaffa become a Arab exclave) under international control and the rest under Arab control

This depends on the British, no? By the late 1930s they recognized how much trouble an independent Israel would cause in the region. But you also have several million more Jews in Eastern Europe, in nations that in OTL would be happy to see them go.

[Whanztastic]

Originally Posted by Maponus

Nietzsche reading quasi-Fascist

Is this implying that Nietzsche was a quasi-Fascist or that quasi-Fascists tend to misread Nietzsche?

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Faeelin

This depends on the British, no? By the late 1930s they recognized how much trouble an independent Israel would cause in the region. But you also have several million more Jews in Eastern Europe, in nations that in OTL would be happy to see them go.

Yes, but honestly I think their emigration to Palestina would be relative low, of course even if only a few (in percent) emigrate, the population would be so much larger, that we could almost as many a OTL. The social make up of the emigrants is likely to be different, Othodoxs Jews are not going to support the Zionist project, but we may see many Jewish intellectuals and middleclass from especially Eastern Europe move. In fact we may see Israel as even more secular and socialist than in OTL. Of course that may change through the decades, with so many more poor Othodox surviving and seeing the Jewish state thrieving, as they may choose to move to it.

[VictorLaszlo]

Without the Shoah and the near extermination of the Yiddish communities in eastern Europe it brought about, Yiddish would have had a much stronger support base in a jewish state in Palestine and might have become an official language there next to or even instead of modern Hebrew. Without the experience of the Shoah, there would also have been a less developped awareness of being jewish among the liberal Jews in central and western Europe and an even stronger assimilation instead. As time went by, one might have probably seen Hebrew being replaced by local languages in jewish lithurgy, especially if the use and knowledge of Hebrew would not have been backed by the fact of it being an official language like in OTLs Israel.

[reformedcpmuser]

Originally Posted by VictorLaszlo

As time went by, one might have probably seen Hebrew being replaced by local languages in jewish lithurgy, especially if the use and knowledge of Hebrew would not have been backed by the fact of it being an official language like in OTLs Israel.

The Jewish Reformation in 19th century Germany already tried to remove Hebrew from liturgy. This move was staunchly opposed by many in the Jewish community well before the Shoah.