What did the Gauls refer to themselves as?

[Errnge]

As the title says

I am having trouble finding sources on what the Gauls called themselves as a group beyond their individual tribes. Surely they had some idea of something beyond, well I'm a Senone, and your Arverni...

So if you know what the Gauls called themselves, please lemme know

[Zuvarq]

Caesar said that they called themselves Celtae, but, of course, it probably wouldn't have ended with ae because that was the Latin ending.

[Errnge]

Originally Posted by Xwarq

Caesar said that they called themselves Celtae, but, of course, it probably wouldn't have ended with ae because that was the Latin ending.

so... Celtos maybe?

the Greeks called them Keltoi.

[Zuvarq]

Originally Posted by Errnge

so... Celtos maybe?

the Greeks called them Keltoi.

After looking up the Gaulish language on the Armenian Genocide, Celtos for the singular and Celtoi for the plural.

[Errnge]

Originally Posted by Xwarq

After looking up the Gaulish language on the Armenian Genocide, Celtos for the singular and Celtoi for the plural.

so they might say, we are of the celtoi, and i am a celtos

interesting how the greeks got the name correct, and it makes me wonder why the romans called them gauls

[Wolfpaw]

Originally Posted by Errnge

interesting how the greeks got the name correct, and it makes me wonder why the romans called them gauls

They were called Galli by the Romans because the first tribe that the Romans made contact with was named something like Gal(a)to, which may have been a corruption of Kelato.

[Max Sinister]

Weren't they many different tribes? Did they have a catch-all term at all?

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Wolfpaw

They were called Galli by the Romans because the first tribe that the Romans made contact with was named something like Gal(a)to, which may have been a corruption of Kelato.

And interestingly 'Gaul' is not derived from 'Galli', the words are totally unrelated. 'Gaul' is another rendering of the same Germanic word from which we get 'Welsh', 'Wallon' and 'Wallach', just meaning 'foreigners who talk funny'.

I don't think the Gauls themselves had a collective term for all their people, and if they did it hasn't survived.

[Emperor Qianlong]

This is a very good question!

Generally:

- There was no overarching term for Celtic-speaking people as a whole in Antiquity. The Britons and the Irish were never refered to as 'Celts' in Antiquity, and the term was used very inconsistently for the Celtic-speaking peoples on the Iberian penninsula. As such, the term "Celts" was really only used for the Gauls and their eastern cousins living along the Alps and on the Balkans.

- The Greeks refered to them as "Keltoi" or "Galatoi". Note that this refers to both the Gauls in Gaul AND the Galatians on the Balkans / in Anatolia.
- The Etruscans refered to the Gauls (in northern Italy) as "Celti".
- Caesar states, as stated above, that they refered to themselves as "Celtae", which is obviously latinized.

In my opinion, "Celti" is the most likely interpretation in my opinion (singular would be "Celtos", assuming the word followed the o-declension). Beyond that, they just refered to themselves by their individual tribal names.

While we are at it, the Britons and the Picts probably refered to themselves as "Priteni" (rendered as "Pryden" later in Welsh).

[Lysandros Aikiedes]

Look at it this way: a Celt of the Arverni tribe would view himself as an Arvernian before seeing himself as a Celt. What we refer to as "tribes" was for them their nationality. The same may have been true for a member of the Volcae, the Aedui, the Andecavi, the Allobroges, the Parisii, the Senones, etc.

Was being a "Latin" more important to the identity to a Roman than being "Roman"?

Did Spartans pride themselves on being "Hellene", or being "Spartan"?

[Thande]

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

While we are at it, the Britons and the Picts probably refered to themselves as "Priteni" (rendered as "Pryden" later in Welsh).

Didn't that come later? I thought the Greeks came up with the name based on the fact that the one tribe they encountered was the Pretani, then the Romans who also knew the name used it to refer to the whole country, and Roman rule in Britain meant that ALL the natives there later adopted it themselves as well.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by Thande

Didn't that come later? I thought the Greeks came up with the name based on the fact that the one tribe they encountered was the Pretani, then the Romans who also knew the name used it to refer to the whole country, and Roman rule in Britain meant that ALL the natives there later adopted it themselves as well.

No, "Priteni" is in my opinion very likely to be the 'original' term. Specifically, a cognate with "Priteni" is attested in Irish/Goidelic as "Cruithne" or "Cruthin". From that, we can reconstruct the original (archaic Irish) form as "Qritani" or "Qriteni", which is 1:1 the Q-Celtic equivalent to P-Celtic "Priteni". Of course, by the time the Greeks had their first contact with Britain (4th century BC), the Q-to-P shift was already complete. If "Priteni" was just the local name of some British tribe which was subsequently adopted by everybody else, the Irish would have also adopted the term as "Priteni", and not have a Q-Celtic cognate of their own.

(of course, technically this means that "Qritani" would be the original term, but this Q-to-P shift must of course have occured even earlier - in so far, "original" means "by the time the Mediterranean world starts to make contact with Britain")

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

No, "Priteni" is in my opinion very likely to be the 'original' term. Specifically, a cognate with "Priteni" is attested in Irish/Goidelic as "Cruithne" or "Cruthin". From that, we can reconstruct the original (archaic Irish) form as "Qritani" or "Qriteni", which is 1:1 the Q-Celtic equivalent to P-Celtic "Priteni". Of course, by the time the Greeks had their first contact with Britain (4th century BC), the Q-to-P shift was already complete. If "Priteni" was just the local name of some British tribe which was subsequently adopted by everybody else, the Irish would have also adopted the term as "Priteni", and not have a Q-Celtic cognate of their own.

(of course, technically this means that "Qritani" would be the original term, but this Q-to-P shift must of course have occured even earlier - in so far, "original" means "by the time the Mediterranean world starts to make contact with Britain")

I've often wondered if there is some connection to the IE word krei with an approximate meaning of separate i.e. Qritani could mean "those now separate from us by the channel".
Or perhaps a connection with kru cold, dry-blood.

I'm trying to recall IE stems with kwr...

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by The Professor

I've often wondered if there is some connection to the IE word krei with an approximate meaning of separate i.e. Qritani could mean "those now separate from us by the channel".
Or perhaps a connection with kru cold, dry-blood.

I'm trying to recall IE stems with kwr...

Hmmm...interesting idea. What I find more problematic is actually the "-tani" part. Thus far, I have seen no convincing etymology for this gentilic suffix, and it's extremely widespread in usage (all the way to Morocco and Sardinia), and it's origin is obscure. It occurs in particular often with Iberian tribal names, though the suffix is clearly not Iberian itself in origin, and is instead merely used to translate the Iberian gentilic suffix "-sken".

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

Hmmm...interesting idea. What I find more problematic is actually the "-tani" part. Thus far, I have seen no convincing etymology for this gentilic suffix, and it's extremely widespread in usage (all the way to Morocco and Sardinia), and it's origin is obscure. It occurs in particular often with Iberian tribal names, though the suffix is clearly not Iberian itself in origin, and is instead merely used to translate the Iberian gentilic suffix "-sken".

Perhaps not qri-tani but qrit-ani? Thus assuming an original qriti akin to kelti/galati etc.

Yes the -tani suffix itself it quite curious.
I do wonder if there might not be some correlation with links between Britain, Iberia, and NorthWest Africa, along the lines of influence by a pre-iberian trading creole/language.

[robertp6165]

Originally Posted by Lysandros Aikiedes

Look at it this way: a Celt of the Arverni tribe would view himself as an Arvernian before seeing himself as a Celt. What we refer to as "tribes" was for them their nationality. The same may have been true for a member of the Volcae, the Aedui, the Andecavi, the Allobroges, the Parisii, the Senones, etc.

Was being a "Latin" more important to the identity to a Roman than being "Roman"?

Did Spartans pride themselves on being "Hellene", or being "Spartan"?

Well, as far as a Spartan goes, both. The Greeks were very aware of their identity as a unique people, sharing a language, identity, religion, and culture. So the appellation of "Hellene" held great meaning for them.

I'm not sure that the same sort of identity applies so much to the Gauls/Celts, though, so your main point is probably mostly valid.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by The Professor

Perhaps not qri-tani but qrit-ani? Thus assuming an original qriti akin to kelti/galati etc.

Yes, that is definitely another possibility! Good idea! I'm not sure about "-an-", but the (augmentative) particle "-on-" is well-attested. This seems more plausible to me.

Regarding, the word "Kelti", it is in itself most curious enough. The best and most convincing etymology I found for "Kelti" is that means something akin to "heroes" (not necessarily the same meaning, but a similar one) and that it is actually a cognate with Germanic words for "hero": Dutch, German "Held", Danish "Helt", Swedish "Hjälte" (also, consider that Proto Indo-European Initial *K is rendered as *H). It may seem paradoxial that the cognate of a Gaulish word is attested in modern Germanic languages but in none of the modern Celtic languages, but there's quite a few words for which this is actually the case.

Yes the -tani suffix itself it quite curious.
I do wonder if there might not be some correlation with links between Britain, Iberia, and NorthWest Africa, along the lines of influence by a pre-iberian trading creole/language.

I have speculated about that one as well (tempting, isn't it? ), but I think it is very hard to test this hypothesis, unfortunately.

[Arafeel]

The Romans were Romans, Latins were Latins.

We really dont know if the La Tene cultur had a name for itself beyond the tribal. And Ceasar needs to be take whit a big grain of salt.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Originally Posted by Arafeel

The Romans were Romans, Latins were Latins.

We really dont know if the La Tene cultur had a name for itself beyond the tribal. And Ceasar needs to be take whit a big grain of salt.

Well, "Celt-" seems like a reasonable candidate, given how it's attested by Roman, Greek and Etruscan sources. Granted, I'd trust the Greeks and Etruscans more than I trusted Caesar, but since he's in accordance with the other two...

[The Professor]

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

Yes, that is definitely another possibility! Good idea! I'm not sure about "-an-", but the (augmentative) particle "-on-" is well-attested. This seems more plausible to me.

Sounds good to me

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

Regarding, the word "Kelti", it is in itself most curious enough. The best and most convincing etymology I found for "Kelti" is that means something akin to "heroes" (not necessarily the same meaning, but a similar one) and that it is actually a cognate with Germanic words for "hero": Dutch, German "Held", Danish "Helt", Swedish "Hjälte" (also, consider that Proto Indo-European Initial *K is rendered as *H). It may seem paradoxial that the cognate of a Gaulish word is attested in modern Germanic languages but in none of the modern Celtic languages, but there's quite a few words for which this is actually the case.

Hmm "Higher/Better/Bigger Men" along the lines of the Yearlings

Originally Posted by Emperor Qianlong

I have speculated about that one as well (tempting, isn't it? ), but I think it is very hard to test this hypothesis, unfortunately.

Tempting indeed yes but not quite Atlantean