Germany cancels jet development, focuses on piston engines?

[KyleB]

Let's say that in 1941 the RLM gets fed up with the slow progress of jet engine development and postpones jet engine/aircraft development indefinitely.

Instead they focus on building the DB 604, Argus 413 and Jumo 222 piston engines, and issue a new specification for Germany's next air-superiority fighter, powered by a single powerful piston engine driving contra-rotating pusher propellers, with tricycle landing gear and four MK108 cannon in the nose. It enters service in early 1944. Also, production and development of the Do 217, He 111, and He 177 is stopped so that the Bomber-B program can be completed.

Any thoughts?

[erich von changstein]

Germany is screwed even if they do that because even if they get that plane it does not change the fact of the bombing.

[Xgentis]

It won't change the outcome of the war.

[KyleB]

Originally Posted by erich von changstein

Germany is screwed even if they do that because even if they get that plane it does not change the fact of the bombing.

Of course Germany is still going to lose the war, but I was wondering what are the repercussions, and how this changes the course of the war...

[Xgentis]

Jet fighter came mutch later.

[KyleB]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

Jet fighter came mutch later.

The Me-262 program commenced very early but was delayed by engine difficulties.

The Me 262 actually first flew as a prototype in 1941, albeit with a piston engine.

[Xgentis]

Originally Posted by KyleB

The Me-262 program commenced very early but was delayed by engine difficulties.

The Me 262 actually first flew as a prototype in 1941, albeit with a piston engine.

I mean after the war sorry. Jet fighter will come mutch later since there will be no captured german jet fighter.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by Xgentis

Jet fighter came mutch later.

Britain developed the jet engine parallel to Germany, with the Gloster Meteor becoming operational in 1944. Frank Whittle not only invented the turbojet engine before the Germans, but his design was more mechanically reliable.

[Das_Colonel]

Originally Posted by KyleB;

Germany's next air-superiority fighter, powered by a single powerful piston engine driving contra-rotating pusher propellers, with tricycle landing gear and four MK108 cannon in the nose. It enters service in early 1944.
Any thoughts?

Almost sounds like your looking for a Do335

[KyleB]

Originally Posted by Das_Colonel

Almost sounds like your looking for a Do335

Do 335 was twin-engined, one in front and one in back.
Besides I'm wondering if something similar to this could be developed sooner, with all the benefits from having a powerplant-free nose.

[Cook]

Jet engines run on kerosene, so didn’t suffer the fuel shortages that grounded the rest of the Luftwaffe by the way; something to remember with an all piston engine air fleet.

[danderson]

Originally Posted by Cook

Britain developed the jet engine parallel to Germany, with the Gloster Meteor becoming operational in 1944. Frank Whittle not only invented the turbojet engine before the Germans, but his design was more mechanically reliable.

Centrifugal flow compressors have the problem that they need to get wider to get more, umm, compression. This leads to wider fuselage and more drag.

I dunno how much research was being done on axial flow compressors in the west. Germany was all about them though. So worse case scenario, western fighters get a little fatter for longer.

[KyleB]

Originally Posted by Cook

Jet engines run on kerosene, so didn’t suffer the fuel shortages that grounded the rest of the Luftwaffe by the way; something to remember with an all piston engine air fleet.

Hmm, can you clarify on that and provide sources?

The Me 262 suffered from drastic fuel shortages too. Often the problem was not that there was no fuel, but that the infrastructure to move the fuel to the Luftwaffe's airfields was wrecked, and that the omnipresent danger of fighter-bombers meant that any serious attempt to move fuel from the factories where synthetic fuel was made to the airfields resulted in a gigantic ball of flames.

[Cook]

Originally Posted by KyleB

Hmm, can you clarify on that and provide sources?

Actually they may have been omnivorous with regard to fuel, I’ll see what I can dig up.

Cal should be along shortly to sort this out anyway.

[Riain]

It would be very short sighted to not develop the next step in fighters in order to develop a piston fighter that will only be marginally better than the ones on the drawing board. Keep in mind that in 1941 nobody could have forseen that jet engines would take quite so long to perfect, or that the war would turn against Germany quite so badly. Perhaps they could have been ready in 1943, or perhaps the war could have turned out a bit differently and Germany controlled more territory and resources in late 44.

[Astrodragon]

Originally Posted by danderson

Centrifugal flow compressors have the problem that they need to get wider to get more, umm, compression. This leads to wider fuselage and more drag.

I dunno how much research was being done on axial flow compressors in the west. Germany was all about them though. So worse case scenario, western fighters get a little fatter for longer.

The British were developing them in parallel. They decided at the time that the centrifugal engine was better (at that stage of development), and they were probably right.

[Faralis]

Originally Posted by Astrodragon

The British were developing them in parallel. They decided at the time that the centrifugal engine was better (at that stage of development), and they were probably right.

Yep, more or less same output ( a bit more powerful IIRC ) but much more reliable, Germans had to change the engines after 100 hour of use ( and sometimes it was even worse ...)

[The BigI]

Originally Posted by danderson

Centrifugal flow compressors have the problem that they need to get wider to get more, umm, compression. This leads to wider fuselage and more drag.

I dunno how much research was being done on axial flow compressors in the west. Germany was all about them though. So worse case scenario, western fighters get a little fatter for longer.

The British went for centrifugal for the meteor over axial because Sir Frank Whittle didn't think that Britsh industry wouldn't be able to produce the refined metals for axial flow engines. The F.2 Freda which was a flyable test bed used on a lancaster bomber had a higher thrust than the jumo 004c and it was flying in 1941. The main issue with centifugal is that technolgically it was a dead end, 1st and 2nd gen centrifugal were more/as powerful as the same axial flow but that would be the most you could really push centrifugal tech while you can with axial. Axials engines used "exotic" material hard to get during a world war, the German's could have made more reliable jet engines but they would have had to curtail u-boat production...so it depends on what you think is more important I suppsoe.

Also a lot of people think that the Germans were much more advanced than the Britsh because they were flying jets sooner, but realistically that was only because the Germans were desperate for a war winner and push the B-17 and B-24's out of the sky fortunately the Britsh didn't have that issue as shown by the late 40 and 50's where the British jet engines were the best in the world.

[BlairWitch749]

German late war piston engine fighters like the ME-109 series K and the FW-190 D where already very competitive anyway. The whole reason jets where attractive to Germany was that they offered a (potential) MASSIVE increase in performance which they thought could be a multiplier to make up for their hyper numerical inferiority

this pod doesn't change much... maybe some elements of wing design get pushed back a few years but the time line would merge with otl by 1955 more or less

[Michel Van]

it not only the RLM fault
one Major Problem was Hitler him self
He demanned that Jet-Fighter Me 262 are produce as Jet-BOMBER !

the other Major Problem was Reichsmarschal Göring chaotic ruel over RLM
he hate the innovative Do 335 design (also BLOHM & VOSS aircraft Design)
wat cornier Göring consider as "that no Aircrafts, but delusional idea of maniacs"

Next to that was RLM catastrophic pilot training or better the lack of it
at end of war they try put non-skilled glider pilots in He 162 Jet-Fighter
wat even experiencing Test Pilots consider as "it is merciless on Pilot-error"

BMW, Mercedes, Junkers had extrem problems on R&D of new Aircraft engines
the lack of vital raw materials like titan, manganese, chromium, vanadium, and tungsten
constant change at RLM demands, lack of resources, man power and engineer
play also an important consideration