The Dead Skunk

[AuroraBorealis]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

At least one Briton is going to be fighting on the side of Italian independence. I'll get to him soon.



What's the issue?

If it's just that the border I drew is kind of jagged, remember that (like the one in the Treaty of 1818 IOTL) it was created by people who were trying to sum it up in an unambiguous written description, and who only knew the land from the charts and descriptions of a bare handful of explorers. Under the circumstances, it could have looked a lot worse. IOTL we ended up with strange possessions like the Northwest Angle and Point Roberts.

From an ambiguity point of few, given the paucity of information... It seems they would have just picked a line of latitute don`t you think...46th in this case. Or more to stretch it...the line of latitude running through the headwaters of the Red to the Columbia River or the Pacific or at least the Stoney Mountains (Rockies)

I digress though.. The NW would not even be a consideration...and Russia would not even care, given that the US has no way to project influence there. The US only received a concrete claim in the region after Adams-Onis, hence border considerations would likely only be centered largely with the area to the East of the Rockies known. until after the border is settled with Spain. Britain will simply dismiss the US pretensions. Hence until they sign their treaty with Spain, which I presume contains the same provisions with repect to there claims in the NW that Adams- Onis did. Negotiations on the NW will not even enter the picture.

Of course if there were a prid pro quo....say extending that border eastward to Lake Michigan., or giving the British the entirety of the Selkirk grant at least...then maybe, the British might be in a talking mood. Even then the US is severlely disadvantaged as they have no presence in any of the lands in question to begin with.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by AuroraBorealis

From an ambiguity point of few, given the paucity of information... It seems they would have just picked a line of latitute don`t you think...46th in this case. Or more to stretch it...the line of latitude running through the headwaters of the Red to the Columbia River or the Pacific or at least the Stoney Mountains (Rockies)

I digress though.. The NW would not even be a consideration...and Russia would not even care, given that the US has no way to project influence there. The US only received a concrete claim in the region after Adams-Onis, hence border considerations would likely only be centered largely with the area to the East of the Rockies known. until after the border is settled with Spain. Britain will simply dismiss the US pretensions. Hence until they sign their treaty with Spain, which I presume contains the same provisions with repect to there claims in the NW that Adams- Onis did. Negotiations on the NW will not even enter the picture.

Of course if there were a prid pro quo....say extending that border eastward to Lake Michigan., or giving the British the entirety of the Selkirk grant at least...then maybe, the British might be in a talking mood. Even then the US is severlely disadvantaged as they have no presence in any of the lands in question to begin with.

AuroraBorealis

I would agree that I think a straight line of latitude would be more likely, since we're talking about areas that, apart from a few fur traders and trappers, no Europeans have visited. It would seem tidier and easier to police than what Lycaon is suggesting. Furthermore would the people negotiation the deal even know in the necessary accuracy where the rivers were?

Probably also simplier to have the 46 95 line drawn west from Lake Superior. [Don't think the US would concede it being extended to Lake Michigan, although they don't have a strong presence in the region at the moment].

Also, if I understand rightly that all modern Texas is being handed to the US? Think from other posts Louisiana is/will be establishing settlements along the coast that way so probably some more tension along there.

In terms of the border with Mexico I can see later clashes. Especially presuming the disorder that plagued OTL Mexico still occurs and/or when gold is discovered in California. The US will want a more secure Pacific coast and some expansion room and barring it getting heavily involved in European alliances or a war that really pushes Britain and the US can take advantage as in 1812, it will need to go south as the northern route is definitely blocked.

I think the mention of Russia support for US claims is more of a way of tweaking Britain's tail and possibly gaining some influence with the US as a possible future distraction for Britain than any concern about the actual borders out west.

Steve

[bm79]

Originally Posted by stevep

Also, if I understand rightly that all modern Texas is being handed to the US? Think from other posts Louisiana is/will be establishing settlements along the coast that way so probably some more tension along there.

No, if you read the post clearly, the US-Mexican border is the same as the Adams-Onis treaty for Texas. Modern Texas is still Mexican territory. If you look up a map of the 1819 border, the differences start if you follow the eastern border of the TX panhandle to the line of the CO-NM border. It's from then on that the border start becoming more generous to the Americans, since it follows that parrallel to the Continental Divide, and so on. As for Louisiana, yes, they've bought the corner of OTL Texas that lies between the Brazos and the 31st parrallel, but the US-Mexican border is still the Sabine river above 31°N.

As far as I can see, this treaty ensures that the US will have far bigger fish to fry with the British than the Spanish/Mexicans. The Brits, either directly or through their Louisianian allies, now control four the the five main ports on the Gulf coast: Tampa (Trafalgar City), Pensacola, New Orleans, and Houston-Galveston (Galvezville). Mobile will only become a viable export-import entrepôt with the completion of the Tennessee-Tombigbee canal, and that's many years off. As long as the Gulf remains a British lake, American expansion in the Southwest is a moot point.

[Lycaon pictus]

I'd just like to apologize for the lack of updates. Because of cutbacks, I've been kept very busy at work, and now because of more cutbacks I'm busy looking for work. I just want everyone to know I haven't given up on this.

And I know this is a little late, but happy Easter.

[King Henry]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

I'd just like to apologize for the lack of updates. Because of cutbacks, I've been kept very busy at work, and now because of more cutbacks I'm busy looking for work. I just want everyone to know I haven't given up on this.

And I know this is a little late, but happy Easter.

Ah, that sucks . Best of luck finding something.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

I'd just like to apologize for the lack of updates. Because of cutbacks, I've been kept very busy at work, and now because of more cutbacks I'm busy looking for work. I just want everyone to know I haven't given up on this.

And I know this is a little late, but happy Easter.

Lycaon

Ugh! Best of luck with the job hunting. Don't bother too much about this as you can get back to it. Keeping a roof over you're head is a much more important matter.

If you're into public service work I believe the US have a vacancy this November but suspect you may be too intelligent and moral to qualify. Hopefully the comparative vacancy will become available in Britain soon although I doubt if any of the likely claimants will be much better.

Steve

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

I'd just like to apologize for the lack of updates. Because of cutbacks, I've been kept very busy at work, and now because of more cutbacks I'm busy looking for work. I just want everyone to know I haven't given up on this.

And I know this is a little late, but happy Easter.

Sorry to hear about that, man. I was the victim of a cutback myself, back in '08.

Originally Posted by stevep

Lycaon

Ugh! Best of luck with the job hunting. Don't bother too much about this as you can get back to it. Keeping a roof over you're head is a much more important matter.

If you're into public service work I believe the US have a vacancy this November but suspect you may be too intelligent and moral to qualify. Hopefully the comparative vacancy will become available in Britain soon although I doubt if any of the likely claimants will be much better.

Steve

Yeah. We're still hoping for an update sometime, though.

[Stolengood]

Rise again, Dead Skunk, rise again!

Just finished reading this whole thread, up to here; glad Andrew Jackson got what he deserved ITTL.

Now... come the 1830 Revolution, who will be King of the Belgians? It is possible, however unlikely, that France might want to project some influence on the events, and possibly set up two benign Bonaparte dynasties on neighboring thrones?

...Lodewijk I, the one and future Koning, and Lucien I, Roi des Belges?

[CaliBoy1990]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

At least one Briton is going to be fighting on the side of Italian independence. I'll get to him soon.



What's the issue?

If it's just that the border I drew is kind of jagged, remember that (like the one in the Treaty of 1818 IOTL) it was created by people who were trying to sum it up in an unambiguous written description, and who only knew the land from the charts and descriptions of a bare handful of explorers. Under the circumstances, it could have looked a lot worse. IOTL we ended up with strange possessions like the Northwest Angle and Point Roberts.

True, true. In any case, hopefully the U.S. gets at least some of the Oregon Country.

Originally Posted by Stolengood

Rise again, Dead Skunk, rise again!

Just finished reading this whole thread, up to here; glad Andrew Jackson got what he deserved ITTL.

Now... come the 1830 Revolution, who will be King of the Belgians? It is possible, however unlikely, that France might want to project some influence on the events, and possibly set up two benign Bonaparte dynasties on neighboring thrones?

...Lodewijk I, the one and future Koning, and Lucien I, Roi des Belges?

It's been a while since I've looked thru this whole thread. Did Jackson die already?

[Stolengood]

Right at the start, remember? He lost the Battle of New Orleans, tried to torch the city as a pissy act of domestic terrorism/sore loser-dom, and was trapped by the Louisianan revolutionaries/British and killed!

That's why the fellow who interviews Watie has no idea who he's talking about; Jackson died forgotten and reviled, just as he should've been.

[Stolengood]

I know Lycaon's situation has been bad, lately, but... any chance we can get a taster on what's coming up in the... well, if not near, then far future?

[Lycaon pictus]

Originally Posted by Stolengood

I know Lycaon's situation has been bad, lately, but... any chance we can get a taster on what's coming up in the... well, if not near, then far future?

I've been away from this for too long. I'll have to reread it myself to get my head back into the Skunkworld.

I can tell you that the Dead Rose political monopoly in the U.S. won't last forever. I can't make any promises about Belgian independence, though — France is becoming pretty strong and… not exactly stable, but with a system capable of managing a certain amount of chaos.

Oh, and the names of the next 5 U.S. Presidents have already been dropped. There, now I won't be the only one rereading it.

[Stolengood]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

I've been away from this for too long. I'll have to reread it myself to get my head back into the Skunkworld.

No problem; it's been wonderfully detailed, thus far.

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

I can tell you that the Dead Rose political monopoly in the U.S. won't last forever.

Do they split like the Democratic-Republicans OTL, or does Randolph's party get stronger over time?

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

I can't make any promises about Belgian independence, though — France is becoming pretty strong and… not exactly stable, but with a system capable of managing a certain amount of chaos.

Well, I can see that being a great benefit; France could use a few Bonaparte-ruled "independent" vassal states...

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

Oh, and the names of the next 5 U.S. Presidents have already been dropped. There, now I won't be the only one rereading it.

I now have the absurdly awesome image in my head of a decade-or-so-younger Harrison, with an eyepatch over the burnt part of his face, taking the oath of office...

[Lycaon pictus]

Originally Posted by Stolengood

No problem; it's been wonderfully detailed, thus far.

Thank you.

Originally Posted by Stolengood

Do they split like the Democratic-Republicans OTL, or does Randolph's party get stronger over time?

The latter, mostly.

Originally Posted by Stolengood

Well, I can see that being a great benefit; France could use a few Bonaparte-ruled "independent" vassal states...

At the moment, Belgium isn't even a vassal state, it's… northern France. I swear I'll get around to posting more maps one of these days.

Originally Posted by Stolengood

I now have the absurdly awesome image in my head of a decade-or-so-younger Harrison, with an eyepatch over the burnt part of his face, taking the oath of office...

Ain't tellin'.

[Rooster Cogburn]

Originally Posted by Stolengood

Jackson died forgotten and reviled, just as he should've been.

Why you no like Jackson?

[King Henry]

Awesome, this is back! Well, in the process of becoming so anyway.

So, since questions are being answered, what's the situation in Poland and Hungary?

[Stolengood]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

Thank you.

Again, quite welcome; been a treat to hear from you personally!

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

The latter, mostly.

Oooh... this'll be interesting to see.

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

At the moment, Belgium isn't even a vassal state, it's… northern France. I swear I'll get around to posting more maps one of these days.

Well, I think they'll try to revolt, anyhow, and when they do, Holland's going to want a piece of the action, as well... so, probably best for the Bonapartes to nip it in the bud with some form of "independence" under the rule of a Bonaparte sibling; again, this is where the goodwill Netherlands's people had for Louis comes into play, and Lucien may well enjoy a chance to exercise his revolutionary ideals concerning suffrage and equality, et. al., on an "independent" state, nominally free from having his relatives pry as when Napoleon ruled -- which would be quite the bonus for Louis, as well.

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

Ain't tellin'.

Not even a preview of whomever you deem "worthy" of being the first to die in office?

Originally Posted by Rooster Cogburn

Why you no like Jackson?

Because Jackson no like human rights for Native Americans, and also because he no like centralized currency to avoid economic shitheaps, and also because he CRAZY!!!

That explanation enough for me no like?

[Lycaon pictus]

Originally Posted by King Henry

Awesome, this is back! Well, in the process of becoming so anyway.

So, since questions are being answered, what's the situation in Poland and Hungary?

Poland is… being repressed. Prussia will end up ceding the Posen area to Russia at the Congress of Stockholm on the grounds that they can control it better. What Prussia gets in return… well, I'll get to that.

I've been wondering about Hungary. It's still a part of the Austrian Empire, but since Austrian influence is rising in Bohemia, Saxony, Baden and Württemberg at the same time as the empire loses its Italian possessions, the empire is becoming more and more German-centered. Conflict potential very high.

[Rooster Cogburn]

Originally Posted by Stolengood

Because Jackson no like human rights for Native Americans, and also because he no like centralized currency to avoid economic shitheaps, and also because he CRAZY!!!

That explanation enough for me no like?

Well the first part goes without saying. The Indians were going to be moved; there's no stopping that. Jackson did the job, but no matter what happened it was going to get done. The Bank was corrupted and abused its power; that's undeniable. Jackson maybe went to far in completely destroying it, but it wasn't exactly and unprovoked attack. How is he crazy? He was a political genius at a time when the U.S. really needed someone with his acute sense of leadership.

[Stolengood]

Originally Posted by Rooster Cogburn

He was a political genius at a time when the U.S. really needed someone with his acute sense of leadership.

I don't think it really did; John Marshall specifically ruled in favor of the Native Americans, only for Jackson to, very unconstitutionally, ignore it.

That does not sound like the mark of a good President, to me -- and let me further note that it did not happen during wartime, which is generally Lincoln's excuse for giving Roger Taney the middle finger, and it's a damn good one.