The Dead Skunk

[Lycaon pictus]

Originally Posted by Adûnakhôr

Adams in 1816, with Monroe as a possibility on the ticket, or the cabinet.

The only thing i wonder now is who exactly would the opposition be? I mean, Crawford has said no, so unless he reneges to offset Adams. But i doubt he would get very far, Adams is playing off the war, playing directly to the people, (and giving them a vision of a stronger, rebuilt and restructured American society) and Crawford AFAIK, was extremly opposed to anything that Adams would be sprouting, and was an ardent states rights activist.

Within the next couple of updates I'm going to start showing the beginnings of opposition to the Democratic-Republicans' new political consensus. As for Crawford, I did some reading on him and came to the conclusion that although he was a states-rights supporter, he was also a very ambitious man who would be drawn to wherever the power was, which for the immediate future will be with the Dead Roses.

[stevep]

Lycaon pictus

I'm not sure that the French would keep high ranking prisoners in such conditions. Possibly ordinary soldiers, especially as conditions are probably pretty grim in France anyway, but I doubt if the higher officers would be treated the same way. Especially a prisoner as important as Wellington, if the government has any desire for a negotiated peace at any point with Britain as it would be seen as a serious insult.

However interesting insights into events occurring and how cut off most prisoners would be from events in the wider world.

Steve

[bm79]

Originally Posted by stevep

Lycaon pictus

I'm not sure that the French would keep high ranking prisoners in such conditions. Possibly ordinary soldiers, especially as conditions are probably pretty grim in France anyway, but I doubt if the higher officers would be treated the same way. Especially a prisoner as important as Wellington, if the government has any desire for a negotiated peace at any point with Britain as it would be seen as a serious insult.

However interesting insights into events occurring and how cut off most prisoners would be from events in the wider world.

Steve

I thought the exact same thing when I read that, stevep, though when he later talks about the English refusing until just now to recognise the Regency as the legitimate government, well... who knows. This is the man who led the army that killed Napoleon.

[Lycaon pictus]

Originally Posted by bm79

I thought the exact same thing when I read that, stevep, though when he later talks about the English refusing until just now to recognise the Regency as the legitimate government, well... who knows. This is the man who led the army that killed Napoleon.

This, plus the old egalitarian spirit of the Revolution, which the French are not always true to but are very happy to apply to their enemies.

And, of course, Wellington would never ask for special treatment, or complain about hunger and cold when ninety-something percent of Europe is hungry and cold. In fact, he might have requested to be kept with the common soldiers just so he could be sure of how they were being treated.

And yeah, things are pretty bad in France. In fact, as far as food goes, Wellington and the other prisoners have probably been doing about as well as the average Frenchman. As for their clothing and shelter, the arrangements for those were drawn up last year, when nobody had a clue how much this year was going to suck.

[Lycaon pictus]

In May of 1816, James Brown and Thomas B. Robertson were two men with a problem. They were senator and representative of a state which was now half gone from the Union. (The other Louisiana senator, Eligius Fromentin, had the previous spring made his apologies to his colleagues and departed with his family for the new Republic of Louisiana. He had yet to be replaced.)

To make matters worse, the rump of Louisiana that was left held considerably less than half of the state’s population and not even a trace of any government above the county level. Was it even a state any longer? This was the Northern Louisiana Question, in its simplest form.

As far as can be determined, no one — not one newspaper editorial, not one congressman — actually proposed formally reducing northern Louisiana to territory status, even if such a thing were permitted under the Constitution. Most people seemed to favor the simplest solution, which was to leave it as a state and let it form a new government in its own time. Given the way the nation’s population was expanding, before too long it would be at least as well populated as, say, Delaware or Rhode Island. No one found this solution very satisfying, however — it raised the question of just how small and lightly populated a state could be and still qualify, a question the Constitution had never addressed.

And then, in May, a minor land dispute between the state and a landowner (Louisiana v. Gibson) made its way to the U.S. Supreme Court, which regretfully ruled that the State had seceded and was de facto no longer a state in the Union, that what was left was “unorganized territory,” and that the state’s attorney represented no one but himself. This carried the disturbing implication that states could secede, which at other points in U.S. history might have been welcome news, but not in this time of national unity.

Meanwhile, across the river, David Holmes had a bigger problem. John Quincy Adams was talking about giving the Cherokees and Choctaws guarantees of land in, respectively, West Florida and Mississippi Territory — near the borders with British territory, where they could serve as a buffer. Holmes, the governor of Mississippi Territory, was fiercely opposed to this, but could not prevent it from happening unless Mississippi were a full-fledged state. (Also opposed to this, as it happened, was Choctaw chief Pushmataha, who had long since learned that white men’s promises were worth their weight in gold and intended to retain every inch of what his people already claimed.)

And so, Holmes, Claiborne, Brown, Robertson and a dozen Louisiana legislators who had chosen the U.S. over the Republic got together in Natchez and pulled off a sort of coup. They applied for Mississippi to become a state, with its territory comprising both Mississippi Territory and northern Louisiana and its capital in Natchez (where it would remain until 1822, when it would be moved to Coffeesburg[1]). Although this could not be acted upon until Congress reconvened in December, it was welcomed at the time as a welcome solution to a thorny problem. (It says something about the spirit of the time that it would not occur to Calhoun and the other representatives of the slave states until later that they had just reduced their potential vote in the Senate by two.)
Andrea Fessler, Rise of the Dead Rose


[1] OTL Vicksburg

[Darth_Kiryan]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

(It says something about the spirit of the time that it would not occur to Calhoun and the other representatives of the slave states until later that they had just reduced their potential vote in the Senate by two.)

This is a rolling eyes moment, i think. Perhaps with a 'der' sound along with it.

[stevep]

Originally Posted by Lycaon pictus

(Also opposed to this, as it happened, was Choctaw chief Pushmataha, who had long since learned that white men’s promises were worth their weight in gold and intended to retain every inch of what his people already claimed.)

Lycaon

Was this meant to be tongue in cheek.

On the slave/free balance one option would be not to split off Maine from Massachusetts. I think this was done in large amount to balance a slave state being added in the south.

Steve

[King Henry]

Originally Posted by stevep

Lycaon

Was this meant to be tongue in cheek.

Well, how much does a promise weigh?

Anyway, awesome update! the precedent for secession is interesting as well. What's the government of Louisiana looking like?

[Lycaon pictus]

Originally Posted by Adûnakhôr

This is a rolling eyes moment, i think. Perhaps with a 'der' sound along with it.

I think you mean "derp."

At this stage, no one realizes just how bad the slave state/free state split is going to get. They might be thinking that it's been completely buried by the new spirit of national unity.

It hasn't, of course. It will start raising its head again about two months into the Adams administration. (Maybe one month — Adams was not a big fan of slavery.) However, the balance between national and state/regional loyalties in the public mind has been permanently changed. Going forward, the U.S. will be a lot more the United States and a lot less these United States.

Originally Posted by stevep

Lycaon

Was this meant to be tongue in cheek.

On the slave/free balance one option would be not to split off Maine from Massachusetts. I think this was done in large amount to balance a slave state being added in the south.

Steve

It was actually a shout-out to Harry Turtledove, who in half his novels has somebody make the "worth its weight in gold" crack about gratitude, praise or some other non-material thing.

Part of the reason Maine became a state was to balance Missouri. The other part was that Maine, on the border with Canada and likely to be on the front lines of any U.S.-British war, did not wish to be thought of as somebody else's expendable backwater. (Remember that Caleb Strong, the governor of Massachusetts, was ready to give a huge chunk of Maine's territory away to the British.)

ITTL, Maine's feelings in this regard will be much, much stronger. Their representatives will be pounding on the doors of Congress in every session to get statehood.

[Lycaon pictus]

Originally Posted by King Henry

Well, how much does a promise weigh?

Anyway, awesome update! the precedent for secession is interesting as well. What's the government of Louisiana looking like?

Thank you.

What's especially interesting is that the U.S. now has a precedent for secession at precisely the moment when nobody wants it. How they respond to this… I'll get to later.

As for the Republic of Louisiana, it's a unicameral National Assembly that elects its president and vice-president. Of course, the ultimate power in the land is the British ambassador.

[bm79]

One thing to think about, if northern Louisiana had remained a state, is that its shrunken population would have remained majority Croele, at least for the next few years. Had there been free elections, most of those elected may well have pressed for the rest of Louisiana to secede to join their cousins further south .

Speaking of which, I do hope you do an update on la République louisianaise soon, as well as what's happening with British Florida. Nearly a year and a half has gone by chronologically with nary a peep.

[King Henry]

Originally Posted by bm79

One thing to think about, if northern Louisiana had remained a state, is that its shrunken population would have remained majority Croele, at least for the next few years. Had there been free elections, most of those elected may well have pressed for the rest of Louisiana to secede to join their cousins further south .

I have a feeling that will not end well for the northern Creoles.

Which reminds me, has the status of the Northwestern Indians changed at all from OTL?

[bm79]

Originally Posted by King Henry

I have a feeling that will not end well for the northern Creoles.

Which, if the independent Louisianians have any brains, means they're actively recruiting along the Red River and further north in Missouri to get those French communities to settle in the Republic.

[Lycaon pictus]

Louisiana, Florida, the T&T canal, the election and the latest from the Other Peninsular War… I picked a great time to get sick.


August 30, 1816
6:45 a.m.
Tampa Bay area

The government of British Florida was a triumvirate of sorts. Admiral Cochrane was in charge of the fleet protecting it, while Major General Gibbs was in charge of the regiments stationed there. Then there was the newly-arrived colonial governor, Thomas Stamford Bingley Raffles. All three men were standing on the tip of the lip of land between Tampa Bay and Hillsborough Bay, observing the construction of what Cochrane had humbly named “Fort Cochrane” while Raffles sketched out a plan for the streets of the port that would hopefully arise here, a city they had already named “Trafalgar.”

“How did you come by this posting?” said Cochrane.

“I was serving as lieutenant-governor of Java before we returned it to the Dutch,” said Raffles. “I returned to London and was told directly that I was wanted here. The Crown desires a colony here that can at least support a few squadrons of the navy.”

“But who would move here of their own free will?” said Cochrane. “Malaria, yellow jack, monstrous reptiles…”

"A few are coming," said Gibbs. "There is already a small community of Jews in the northeast, near St. Augustine. Whether it will amount to anything no one can say just yet.”

“Perhaps we could send transported prisoners here,” said Cochrane. “Easier than sailing them clear to Australia.”

“And have them run away to America the first chance they got?” said Gibbs.

“Plantations, I suppose,” said Cochrane. “God knows it feels hot enough to grow sugarcane.” There was a reason they were out and about this early — later in the day it would become truly miserable.

Raffles shook his head. “There’ll be no slavery in Florida under my jurisdiction,” he said.

“You are an abolitionist, I take it?” said Cochrane.

“Do you remember what Fouché said of the murder of the Duc d’Enghien?” said Raffles. “That it was ‘worse than a crime, it was a blunder’?”

“I thought it was Talleyrand who said that,” said Cochrane.

Raffles shook his head. “Talleyrand said many clever things, but I’m sure it was Fouché who said this. In any event, slavery is worse than an evil — it is a liability, at least in a colony under any sort of military threat. It amounts to little more than importing a fifth column of spies and saboteurs for the enemy to make use of.”

“Then who is to build the port?”

“We will recruit labourers from India and the Far East,” he said. “I imagine there’ll be Hindu untouchables only too happy to settle a land where no one cares about caste. And poor Bengalis, Javanese and Balinese… I assure you, these swamps will hold no terrors for them, and rice should grow well here. Possibly Chinese as well. A period of indentured servitude to pay off the cost of transportation, followed by land grants… If more workers are wanting, I dare say there are Haitians and Jamaican freedmen looking for employment.”

“Land grants?” said Gibbs. “I think the Seminoles and Creeks may have something to say about that.”

“How many of them are there?” said Raffles.

“I haven’t done a precise census,” said Gibbs. “I would estimate there are about 20,000 Creeks and 5,000 Seminoles. But they are our allies — in fact, I plan to organize their warriors into regiments.”

“I dare say we can work something out,” said Raffles.

“If you hold to your plans, this will become a very… strange colony,” said Cochrane.

“I do not imagine that Florida is destined to become a land of Saxon blood and Anglican creed,” said Raffles. “But I will see it become a loyal and valued part of the British Empire.”

[Darth_Kiryan]

British Anti-slavery Florida shall cause problems for the Slavery in the United States.....obviously.

[Iserlohn]

Well, Lycaon pictus, just wanted to note something: I've followed this timeline for quite some time now AND since I've enjoyed it thus far VERY much I've nominated it for the Turtledove Awards.

Hope to see more in the future!

[Lycaon pictus]

Originally Posted by Adûnakhôr

British Anti-slavery Florida shall cause problems for the Slavery in the United States.....obviously.

Oh yes. Very much so.

Originally Posted by Iserlohn

Well, Lycaon pictus, just wanted to note something: I've followed this timeline for quite some time now AND since I've enjoyed it thus far VERY much I've nominated it for the Turtledove Awards.

Hope to see more in the future!

Thank you. I'm honored.

And in case I don't check in again before the end of the holidays… Merry Christmas, everyone.

[bm79]

You've got a Florida that's on the path to look a lot like Trinidad and Tobago... That's pretty cool.

[Iserlohn]

Got around to catch up to the December updates, which I didn't read up until now, which confirms my nomination more firmly. VERY interesting developments, love the way Florida is going, spares it from becoming a retirement home for Germans and "Caucasian" Americans.

Also I think I might have missed it but what is the northern border of the Republic of Louisiana? How far below the 33rd parallel?

[Lycaon pictus]

Two parallels. Everything north of the 31st parallel is still U.S. territory.

So it's quite a small republic… especially since its western border hasn't been clearly defined yet. (I will get to that.)