Belgian Maignot Line?

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
Why didn't it occur to the French government that it might be a good idea to persuade the Belgians to compliment their defensive line with a northern version? Maybe it's just cause I have the benefit of hindsight, maybe it's because no one thought the German's would be attacking again any time soon, but it just seems like such a stupid thing to think that the German's wouldn't pull the same trick again?

And if it's the case that it didn't occur to the French, why didn't the Belgians just copy the idea anyway? I mean, massive defensive lines are pretty useful when you haven't got a very impressive army...
 
black angel

black angel

The French did later after the first part of the Maignot Line was finished make a Belgian Maignot Line (or behind Belgium) it could never be as strong though because the ground water in that area is much higher, no way to dig in, so that line was much weaker and was broke by the germans

plus Belgium didn't have that kind of money
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
black angel said:
The French did later after the first part of the Maignot Line was finished make a Belgian Maignot Line (or behind Belgium) it could never be as strong though because the ground water in that area is much higher, no way to dig in, so that line was much weaker and was broke by the germans

plus Belgium didn't have that kind of money
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So I saw, but it just emphasises the point, why not work with the Belgians to make a shorter and stronger line up the Dutch border rather than going to Calais?
The French project cost about 3 billion Francs. I'm just estimating here, but I'd say around 2 billion went into making the the heavier Alsace fortifications, with the other billion making the line up to the channel. Why not take that billion, pool it with the Belgians and make the other line?
 

mrmandias

Todyo1798 said:
So I saw, but it just emphasises the point, why not work with the Belgians to make a shorter and stronger line up the Dutch border rather than going to Calais?
The French project cost about 3 billion Francs. I'm just estimating here, but I'd say around 2 billion went into making the the heavier Alsace fortifications, with the other billion making the line up to the channel. Why not take that billion, pool it with the Belgians and make the other line?
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Perhaps the Belgians would not see that as consistent with their neutrality.
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
mrmandias said:
Perhaps the Belgians would not see that as consistent with their neutrality.
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Yes but that doesn't mean that a security paranoid France doesn't want a buffer state. Just look at the Little Entente and other plans to hem in Germany, plus Belgium kind of owes France for the massive loses in population, infrastructure and industry they sustained for them in the Great War.
 

Magnum

Todyo1798 said:
Yes but that doesn't mean that a security paranoid France doesn't want a buffer state.
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How about Luxemburg ? Maybe the communist unrest there is far bigger, and the government turns to France instead of Germany for some reason.

A Maginot Line running all the way to the north of Luxemburg and manned by French troops, with the mobile formations placed there as well ready to advance northwards towards the dutch portion of the Rhine would really, really alter the strategic situation.
 

Grimm Reaper

Belgium owes France for not surrendering to Germany in WWI?

Todyo1798, while France was quite happy to have Belgium as an ally French sacrifices had nothing to do with Belgium in WWI.
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
Magnum said:
How about Luxemburg ? Maybe the communist unrest there is far bigger, and the government turns to France instead of Germany for some reason.

A Maginot Line running all the way to the north of Luxemburg and manned by French troops, with the mobile formations placed there as well ready to advance northwards towards the dutch portion of the Rhine would really, really alter the strategic situation.
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Hmm, a Franco-Belgian Maignot line does look kind of stupid with that gap in the middle.

It would make the Blitzkrieg a lot more awkward for sure.

Grimm Reaper said:
Belgium owes France for not surrendering to Germany in WWI?

Todyo1798, while France was quite happy to have Belgium as an ally French sacrifices had nothing to do with Belgium in WWI.
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Yeah...it was Britain who was technically fighting for Belgium....
My bad :eek:
 

DaleCoz

In the interwar years Belgium actually did put an enormous amount of effort into creating rings of fortifications, though they did so with no official coordination with the French, and very little actual coordination with them.

The Belgians have actually been criticized for creating more fortifications than they could man. The Belgian forts didn't do well when the Germans attacked. I'm sure everyone has heard of the German glider landing on the roof of one of the most formidable of the Belgian forts, and their subsequent destruction of the main gun placements using the then brand new technique of something similar to HEAT charges. Most of the Belgian forts fell relatively quickly and/or were bypassed and screened by the Germans.

Belgium got very little bang for their investment in fortifications, and might have been better off investing their money in tanks, artillery, aircraft and field defenses. They would have been even better off staying in alliance with France, and coordinating defense plans with the French. They didn't do that due to an understandable fear of being drawn into an unnecessary French war over the French allies in central and eastern Europe.
 

Evan

But Belgium was in alliance with France until Hitler occupied the Rhineland, or sometime around then, wasn't it?
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
DaleCoz said:
In the interwar years Belgium actually did put an enormous amount of effort into creating rings of fortifications, though they did so with no official coordination with the French, and very little actual coordination with them.

The Belgians have actually been criticized for creating more fortifications than they could man. The Belgian forts didn't do well when the Germans attacked. I'm sure everyone has heard of the German glider landing on the roof of one of the most formidable of the Belgian forts, and their subsequent destruction of the main gun placements using the then brand new technique of something similar to HEAT charges. Most of the Belgian forts fell relatively quickly and/or were bypassed and screened by the Germans.

Belgium got very little bang for their investment in fortifications, and might have been better off investing their money in tanks, artillery, aircraft and field defenses. They would have been even better off staying in alliance with France, and coordinating defense plans with the French. They didn't do that due to an understandable fear of being drawn into an unnecessary French war over the French allies in central and eastern Europe.
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Okay, so a greater pro-France sentiment in Belgium following the Great War leads to maintaining the alliance despite the risks of being drawn into war with Germany. After this, the French High Command decides to work with Belgium and extends their current defensive plans north to the Dutch border. Due to the small size of the Belgian army, the Belgian section of the line is maintained by both Belgian and French troops (I think that's pretty reasonable).
France gets a similar agreement with Luxemburg somehow.

Damn now I want to make a partial France-wank in the 1930's :p
 
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Xgentis

Xgentis

Not a chance for that to have happened not under Leopold III. And why would Belgium invest tons of money for France? Belgium was hit pretty hard by the great depression and was still rebuilding from WWI. Belgium simply didn't have the mean to do that.
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
Xgentis said:
Not a chance for that to have happened not under Leopold III. And why would Belgium invest tons of money for France? Belgium was hit pretty hard by the great depression and was still rebuilding from WWI. Belgium simply didn't have the mean to do that.
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With heavy French investment in the project of course. They couldn't make a decent line by themselves, so it's going to require substantial funds and supplies from France.
 
Xgentis

Xgentis

Todyo1798 said:
With heavy French investment in the project of course. They couldn't make a decent line by themselves, so it's going to require substantial funds and supplies from France.
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France wouldn't want to pay for that etheir and they have no way to know that a war will start again.
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
Xgentis said:
France wouldn't want to pay for that etheir and they have no way to know that a war will start again.
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Yes that's the thing isn't it. France is working on about 20 different plans to keep Germany from challenging them again so they'll be pretty sure that they're safe. Safe enough to not come up with the extension idea.
 
Xgentis

Xgentis

Just put yourself in the mindset of the peoples of that time and you will understand that war was the last thing the peoples want to think. The politicians were pacifist to such a extent that it was ridiculous.
 

Revolutionary Todyo

Banned
Xgentis said:
Just put yourself in the mindset of the peoples of that time and you will understand that war was the last thing the peoples want to think. The politicians were pacifist to such a extent that it was ridiculous.
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As I said at the start, it's hindsight that makes the idea seem so obvious to us now.
 

Parma

If you want to extend the Maginot Line through Belgium, to the coast or to the Netherlands, you missing the whole point and purpose of the line.
The ''gap'' which the Belgian-German border was, was indented.
The idea of the Maginot line, was to channel a future German assault through Belgium. The French army would fight a mobil war ( with all its devastation and death) on Belgium soil, saving French the destruction.
The idea behind the line was thus to make the French border impregnatable, which it really became, forcing the Germans to invade France trough Belgium, what they did. The only thing was that the mobil war did not went according to plan as the French thought it should be, but that had other reasons.
 
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