A sealion with shades of red?

[EAF602Whizz]

Just musing to fill in the dreary hours at work so don't get all mad at me.

Churchill manages to scrape together his little expeditionary force of British, French and some free Polish forces to go to the aid of Finland. There are all sorts of complications with Norway and Sweden and we've maybe lost friends because of it, but the troops are in Finland, fighting Russians. Meanwhile RAF wellington bombers based in the Near East attack targets in the southern Soviet Union with little success. We lose a few Wellingtons and their crews are never seen again whether they bale out or not. Britain and France are at war with Germany and the Soviet Union.

Our fairly pathetic military contribution however can't save Finland from being eventually steamrollered although perhaps our presence makes a ceasefire more complicated and ultimately Finland becomes an SSR. The first Hurricane aces of WW2 are based in Finland rather than France.

Come Spring the Germans invade Denmark and Southern Norway, the soviets invade Northern Norway. What happens in Sweden? Are they coerced/bullied into joining the axis?

France falls as per OTL along with Belgium and Holland. Soviet Union invades Persia possibly?

August 1940 The battle of Britain is kicking off with the addition of Soviet SB2s etc. My question is what's soviet amphibious assault capability like?

[Blackadder mk 2]

ASB to the power of 5

[EAF602Whizz]

Ha ha ha. That's that then. lol.

[Cockroach]

Axis gains in shear number of aircraft (if the Germans are willing to let Soviet aircraft operate from France and the infustructure allows it) and get a moderate boost in naval power (two or three obselete and poorly maintained Battleships, a handful of cruisers and a fair number of destroyers). Doubt it changes amphibious lift much (the sovs few amphibious operations early in the war were far from brilliant successes). Not sure about the anti-shipping capability of the Soviet airforce...

Communications and logistical difficulties will go someway to negate those gains though.

All in all, yes it improves the Axis position, if we take only the positive side of things and ignore the negatives, perhaps even enough that Seelowe moves from utterly implausible to meerly a long shot. That said, it is still certainly not enough to give any certainty of success...

[My Username is Inigo Montoya]

http://www.alternatehistory.com/disc...d.php?t=189023!!!
It's basically the scenario you described.
We've not decided yet whether there'll be a Sealion analogue -but I don't think it would succeed anyway.

[EAF602Whizz]

I didn't think so either tbh, but I was curious about Soviet amphibious abilities and airlift.

I think possibly a Soviet invasion of Northern Norway might take some of the heat off of the Kriegsmarine. The Soviet navy is toast when it meets the RN. Perhaps fewer German destroyers get sunk.

I could see a Soviet expeditionary force maybe participating in the battle of Britain as retaliation for the RAF attacks on Russian oil fields. Similar to the Italian component. Maybe also allied forces clashing with the red army in the Near East.

[Grey Wolf]

If the addition of Soviet aircraft allow the BoB to be won, then the combined airforce could attempt to close the channel - that was IIRC the plan, to prevent the RN enterng the Channel

later

[EAF602Whizz]

Interesting story JaneStillman. I'll keep an eye out for it.

[EAF602Whizz]

I wasn't really thinking about a German-Soviet victory in the Battle of Britain to be honest, I was thinking more about how the war might go after they gave up on it. But I was curious about soviet amphibious ability which I now know to be negligible. So no red sealion...and that's good.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally Posted by EAF602Whizz

I wasn't really thinking about a German-Soviet victory in the Battle of Britain to be honest, I was thinking more about how the war might go after they gave up on it. But I was curious about soviet amphibious ability which I now know to be negligible. So no red sealion...and that's good.

OK, I don't need to finish the rest of my post then!

I got interrupted by a customer

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

[EAF602Whizz]

If I had the means at hand I'd have liked to photoshop a pic of short trousered English schoolboys removing souvenirs from a downed Tupolev or Spitfires peeling off over an armada of red starred, silver skinned bombers whilst the 'Rata' escorts look on in helpless horror.

[iainbhx]

Originally Posted by EAF602Whizz

If I had the means at hand I'd have liked to photoshop a pic of short trousered English schoolboys removing souvenirs from a downed Tupolev or Spitfires peeling off over an armada of red starred, silver skinned bombers whilst the 'Rata' escorts look on in helpless horror.

Well, the TB-3's wouldn't be able to get to the UK from Northern Norway with a bomb load (well, they would, they wouldn't get back). So I suppose that leaves SB's and the Rata's would be there either.

[EAF602Whizz]

They would have to operate from Belgium or France alongside their camply uniformed pals in the Luftwaffe.

[iainbhx]

Originally Posted by EAF602Whizz

They would have to operate from Belgium or France alongside their camply uniformed pals in the Luftwaffe.

I suppose the logistics of that will be better than operating from TRD or BGO.

Rata's aren't going to be the best escorts as even with drop tanks they won't have much dwell time. Spitfire vs Rata will be a bit one sided as well.

As for the TB-3's, unescorted would just be creating aces. Escorted, they'll slow the escorts a lot.

[mailinutile2]

Sea LionBear !
I like it

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

In November 1939, Hitler is victime of a bombing and Goering takes power after him, since he was the named successor.

In April 1940, the allied fleets mobilizes, then invades Norway (circa 2 weeks later than than the Germans IOTL). Because of that and Goering not presing his generals, Case Yellow isn´t launched.

The Anglo-French alliance invades Norway in the summer of 1940 to cut off iron ore supplies to Germany, Germany is able to defeate the entente and drive them back to Norway.
Battle of Norway between the Luftwaffe and RAF, abombing keeps allied supplies at bay and in latter 1940, the allies abandonnes Norway, which is annexed by Sweden.

Churchill takes power due to the failure of the Scandinavian campaign and order the start of bombing against Germany.

In summer 1941, the entente strikes against the Rhineland, with full war mobilization and much ressources to fuel it, the entente is able to breake through. Meanwhile, Stalin pressures the Japanese Empire for some territories.

By late 1941, Rhineland and Belgium are occupied, the axis looses 1/3 of its industry.

In early 1942, bombing campaign continues and in early spring, the entente breakes through into central Germany. An attempted bombing is launched against Goering, Heydrich and Goebbels gaines increased power in remaining Germany. Stalin gaines some territories from nationalist China.
By summer, the western half of Germany is overrune by the allies, Mussolini have Austria occupied. Meanwhile, the Soviet-Union start a war with Turkey, winning swiftly with chemical weapons.
By autumn, the battle of Berlin begins, insurrections in German-occupied Warsawa and Prague.
Meanwhile, Turkey is defeated and Stalin obtaines an opening to the Mediterranean.

In spring 1943, Germany is occupied, new regimes established in Warsawa and Prague, the entente is arming Turkey and the Soviet-Union is arming axis Slovakia, Hungary and Romania, where free German forces under Heydrich still holds.
The Entente launch two major bombing raid against the Caucase and Ploesti oil installations, both strikes aren´t as successfull as planned by far, the Soviet-Union joins the axis.
By summer, the extended axis launch an offensive which defeats the Anglo-French and their Poles and Czech sidekicks, in autumn Poland is occupied once more and east Prussia is liberated.
In the early half of 1944, the Red Army breakes the entente hold on Germany, Heydrich, who is backed by Stalin, as Stalin doesn´t want to waste forces occupying Germany, is able to coordinate insurrections against the occupiers.
In latter 1944, the axis reinforce its hold on the balkans and the middle-east, open its way to France.
In early 1945, the axis forces drives swiftly into France, massive bombardement is unleashed on southern england and naval bombers are powerfull enough to interdict the R.N. from the channel, while axis forces gathers in Belgium and northern France.
In spring 1945, invasion of England begin, Churchill attempts to use chemical weapons but the invading force is prepared for that, Stalin suspected such thing would happen.

By summer 1945, the British isles have surrendered and are occupied by a join axis force, the Kingdom of Italy (which gives back Austria) and Empire of Japan have joined the axis and fight remaing entente forces in former colonial territories.


The Soviet-Union is the major power of the axis, which in the next years controls much of eurasia and africa.

[Monty Burns]

One main thing to consider ITTL is that the strategic situation changed fundamentally. The main question is how Hitler handles this.

If Hitler is still around, the Germans will sooner or later backstab the Soviets.

Without Hitler, there is a real chance of a stable alliance between Nazis and Soviets. Such an alliance has no need for a quick victory over Britain. They'd likely decide for a Mediterranean campaign, trying to conquer Turkey, Persia, the gulf oil and the Suez channel, while slowly preparing for an amphibious assault. Hitler had to do it quick to get free hands against the Soviets, his ultimate goal. Without that goal, the Germans and Soviets rule uncontested on the continent, no need to hurry.

[David Floyd]

Wyragen,

Umm, what? I assume that somewhere in there you have the Soviets and Germans developing aircraft with anti-ship capability, right? Of course, this seems unlikely with Germany basically occupied by the Entente.

Other than that, I don't know what to say other than I assume you were kidding.

[Jukra]

Originally Posted by EAF602Whizz

August 1940 The battle of Britain is kicking off with the addition of Soviet SB2s etc. My question is what's soviet amphibious assault capability like?

If determined as a number of purpose built assault craft, negligible. However, Soviets could provide, or sell, very large number of well built (well, much better than Italian) light naval craft as well as light coasters which could provide German Kriegsmarine some additional power in Sealion.

As an example for some of these small crafts:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MO_class_small_guard_ship

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G-5_cla...r_torpedo_boat