A Song was Heard in China - A Different Tiananmen

[marcus_aurelius]

Originally Posted by Tony

A special update later today - in memory of Fang Lizhi. R.I.P. May his spirits live. Long live democracy!

RIP indeed. Long live democracy!

Marc A

[Tony]

Fang Lizhi dies at 76
(April 7, 2012)

BEIJING (World Economic Tribunal) - Professor Fang Lizhi, a leading astrophysicist who was also regarded as one of the fathers of Chinese democracy, dies earlier today in his apartment in Beijing at the age of 76. President [redacted] offered his deepest condolences to the family of Fang, and praised Fang for his contributions to China's democratic development and scientific achievements. The presidential palace orders the national flag to be lowered for three days, in the memory of Professor Fang.

Fang Lizhi began his academic careers in the fields of research on astrophysics and cosmology in the 1970s. He then served as Vice President of the University of Science and Technology of China from September 1984 until he was sacked personally by prominent leader Deng Xiaoping in 1987 due to "bourgeois liberalism".

Along with his wife, he was considered one of the most thought-provoking liberal intellectuals in the 1980s that inspired the student movements in 1986 and 1989. In 1986, he emerged as an eloquent advocate of radical political change in China, declaring science should not be determined by Marxist theory. Fang was quoted as saying in 1987 that the Chinese Communist Party could not boast of a single success in nearly 40 years of rule. "Marxism...is like a worn dress that must be put aside," he said.

Fang, along with several intellectuals identified with China's dissident movement, was invited to a banquet with former U.S. President George Bush during a visit in February 1989, but police barred him from attending.

Following the Tiananmen Revolution, Fang became a founding member of the Social Progressive Alliance. In February 1990, he was elected to the ad hoc National People's Congress. A year later, he was elected to the Federal Assembly as a member of the newly-formed [redacted] merged by the SPA and the CUFD. However, he chose not to join the Democratic Party when the [redacted] merged with the [redacted] in 1993.

Following the retirement of Gu Chaohao in 1993, Fang resigned from the Federal Assembly to become President of the University of Science and Technology of China. He served for 10 years, until he was elected President of the Chinese Academy of Sciences, where he served until 2008.He was also a member of the International Astronomical Union. Fang later returned to the University of Science and Technology of China as a professor emeritus, and continued teaching until his death.

Another update tonight: The Board of Education

OOC: This update is a special update in memory of Professor Fang Lizhi.

[historybuff]

Interesting. I googled the real Fang Lizhi cuz I didn't recognize him.

[Archangel]

Good update, Tony!
Science must not indeed be held by statical political dogmatism.

[John Fredrick Parker]

Originally Posted by Tony

OOC: This update is a special update in memory of Professor Fang Lizhi.

An informative and (oddly) moving update...

[marcus_aurelius]

University of Science and Technology? There's a large number of those in China. Where is it located?

Marc A

[FDW]

Nice updates Tony.

[Tony]

Originally Posted by PaganMonarchist

Great update on Die Wende, you had Schabowski screw up even more than he actually did IOTL!!!

I think I'm going to read through the whole timeline again just for the heck of it! It's excellent!

Originally Posted by EternalCynic

Two small things about the collapse of the DDR:

1) In this TL, Czechoslovakia abolishes the Communist Party's monopoly in late August. Yet its leadership was hardline and won't suddenly give up its leading political role without an earlier Velvet Revolution.

2) The 40th anniversary of the DDR's founding on October 7 were a major turning point IOTL. Did the obligatory parade and celebrations get cancelled ITL?

The ending of the last post suggests that Soviet hardliners are plotting against Gorby. It sounds like the August 1991 coup.

1) True. Yet if it is destined to fall by that time, it just doesn't have to fall particularly earlier than in OTL. It won't really affect the course of things.

2) No, it was not canceled, but protesters were creating trouble that day. Would briefly talk about this when I put up an update about "October 1989" after I finish everything in 1989, when I am to include a table of events.

3) See my second update on East Germany.

Originally Posted by Archangel

The Communist regimes in Eastern Europe are starting to fall.

Keep it up, Tony!

Originally Posted by Archibald

So france gets qualified for the 90 world cup in Italy ?

Yep

Originally Posted by Hörnla

Well done handling of events in the GDR. The whole German Unification process is ripe for butterflies as it depends very much on the diplomatic situation, but also on the FRG's response.
ITTL, Helmut Kohl's sudden and continuous pressure to speed up the process virtually as soon as the wall had come down (10-point-plan) was quite a surprise and might have been derailed at some point.

Originally Posted by trekchu

I had totally forgotten about this...

Anyway, methinks that fat man may or may not win the election. Hopefully not.

Won't comment much here, but just consider one thing. At the time when Schabowski held that press conference in OTL, Kohl was in Poland, and he did manage to rush back to West Berlin on time. Like in OTL, it was pretty much surprising, so I can't see Kohl would handle it worse However, any change to the status quo would require a common agreement from the Four Occupying Powers post-1945 - I mean, US, France, Britain and the USSR. Gorbachev would be more reluctant to accept reunification than in OTL due to the nature of things happening here, and Thatcher would almost certainly try to create trouble here

Originally Posted by Stolengood

I know the title refers to The Blood is On the Square, but it keeps making me think of this little ditty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qW_Z3X1jTrw&hd=1

...which is rather appropriate, no?

Thanks for this reference It may well be a far better theme song of my TL, since I used some lines of The Blood is On the Square while my TL means differently

Originally Posted by John Fredrick Parker

Could this mean the USSR, as a political entity, survives ITTL?

It may collapse into a bloody civil war, or get dissolved in an alternate August coup - but even if it survives, it won't necessarily be named the Soviet Union

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Either that or it collapses later on into massive civil war.

True.

Originally Posted by marcus_aurelius

This sounds rather likely, as Tony had hinted at a turbulent 90s a while back.

Marc A

The 1990s will be turbulent, primarily because of East Asia, not necessarily Soviet Union (or its successors if it did break up or transform into another thing). After finishing Czechoslovakia and Romania, I'll jump directly to 1990, which would begin with the Tibetan issue. The Taiwanese question will be solved quickly as well. Within this month, I'll post up the Chinese and Japanese general elections results of 1990. Still quite peaceful and optimistic, though you could sense something wrong with Japan soon, or you could already For China, the biggest turmoil won't be North Korea, but something really fucking terrible. You would get some hints once this TL begins discussion of 三峽. Things would deteriorate rather quickly.

Originally Posted by historybuff

Interesting. I googled the real Fang Lizhi cuz I didn't recognize him.

Originally Posted by Archangel

Good update, Tony!
Science must not indeed be held by statical political dogmatism.

Originally Posted by John Fredrick Parker

An informative and (oddly) moving update...

Originally Posted by FDW

Nice updates Tony.

Thanks

Originally Posted by marcus_aurelius

University of Science and Technology? There's a large number of those in China. Where is it located?

Marc A

Seemingly Hefei, IIRC.

[PaganMonarchist]

Originally Posted by PaganMonarchist

Also, I just read in Time about how when Khamenei came to power in Iran after the death of Ayatollah Khomeini in June 1989 or thereabouts, the Iranian leadership had two options, the Russian path of political reform, which Khamenei felt meant any compromise meant the end of the regime, and the Chinese path of economic reform in return for political control, which Rafsanjani apparently advocated.

Well, you just had the regime in China fall by June of 1989, and you've implied the USSR will fall as well, probably even sooner then IOTL, am I right? What effect will the Tiananmen Revolution have on Iran's development over the following 20 years, I wonder? Will the 2009 election protests, or some analogue of them, still occur in the future? Could the changes lead to the fall of the IRI by TTL's 2012?

Hey Tony, what do you have to say about this possible effect of the Tiananmen Revolution?

[Tony]

Originally Posted by PaganMonarchist

Hey Tony, what do you have to say about this possible effect of the Tiananmen Revolution?

Let us chat in private message instead of here.

[Tony]

In answering a question from a friend of mine who is not even a member of AH.com, Professor Kong Qingdong of the Peking University, widely associated with Bo Xilai and the far-left elements in OTL who however began his career as a Tiananmen student leader, still became head of a branch of the student movement in 1989 in TTL.

In OTL, he goes crazy and barks like a dog on Western democracy, while calling the people of Hong Kong "dogs" (despite him being one) for using Cantonese instead of Putonghua during an incident in which a Mainlander Chinese child eats in a train in Hong Kong - which is indeed unwelcoming behavior, against the law of Hong Kong.

Kong Qingdong in TTL may not begin that insane given his Tiananmen ties, but a somewhat positive figure instead. However, he won't end up good, that's what I would promise.

Regarding Bo Xilai, who has just been purged, would play a prominent role in the 1990s as the "surviving son of the revolution" and the "last survivor of the people's republic". His presence would make things quite crazy, and he could presumably play quite well in electoral politics given that he is a natural animal for the mass media. Despite his crazy views, Bo Xilai just could sell his idea effectively. I doubt Hu Jintao, the bureaucratic robot would ever have a chance to beat Bo if a free election is held between Bo and him today. In one of my previous updates, I've already talked about Bo indirectly, please feel free to have a look.

[marcus_aurelius]

Originally Posted by Tony

In answering a question from a friend of mine who is not even a member of AH.com, Professor Kong Qingdong of the Peking University, widely associated with Bo Xilai and the far-left elements in OTL who however began his career as a Tiananmen student leader, still became head of a branch of the student movement in 1989 in TTL.

In OTL, he goes crazy and barks like a dog on Western democracy, while calling the people of Hong Kong "dogs" (despite him being one) for using Cantonese instead of Putonghua during an incident in which a Mainlander Chinese child eats in a train in Hong Kong - which is indeed unwelcoming behavior, against the law of Hong Kong.

Kong Qingdong in TTL may not begin that insane given his Tiananmen ties, but a somewhat positive figure instead. However, he won't end up good, that's what I would promise.

Regarding Bo Xilai, who has just been purged, would play a prominent role in the 1990s as the "surviving son of the revolution" and the "last survivor of the people's republic". His presence would make things quite crazy, and he could presumably play quite well in electoral politics given that he is a natural animal for the mass media. Despite his crazy views, Bo Xilai just could sell his idea effectively. I doubt Hu Jintao, the bureaucratic robot would ever have a chance to beat Bo if a free election is held between Bo and him today. In one of my previous updates, I've already talked about Xi indirectly, please feel free to have a look.

Oh yeah, I almost forgot about that bastard... let's show him who's boss, eh?

Marc A

[historybuff]

Tony, I'm not sure if your updates for this are showing up.

[kingbaldrick]

Tony, keep up the good work! If China had become democratic, I think this would be a much happier world.

BTW, will China be changing its flag in the future? I mean, it doesn't seem likely that a Democratic China would keep using the red banner. Maybe we'll see the return of this flag:



It's not associated with any political party, unlike the flags of the PRC and ROC (CCP and Kuomintang, respectively), while also being associated with the efforts of Dr. Sun Yat-sen, an early proponent of Chinese Republicanism.

[Jonathan Kan]

Originally Posted by kingbaldrick

Tony, keep up the good work! If China had become democratic, I think this would be a much happier world.

BTW, will China be changing its flag in the future? I mean, it doesn't seem likely that a Democratic China would keep using the red banner. Maybe we'll see the return of this flag:



It's not associated with any political party, unlike the flags of the PRC and ROC (CCP and Kuomintang, respectively), while also being associated with the efforts of Dr. Sun Yat-sen, an early proponent of Chinese Republicanism.

OTOH, this flag also remind people the Warlord era...

[EternalCynic]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Kan

OTOH, this flag also remind people the Warlord era...

And it isn't auspicious to resurrect symbols of the past in any case.

[marcus_aurelius]

Originally Posted by kingbaldrick

Tony, keep up the good work! If China had become democratic, I think this would be a much happier world.

BTW, will China be changing its flag in the future? I mean, it doesn't seem likely that a Democratic China would keep using the red banner. Maybe we'll see the return of this flag:



It's not associated with any political party, unlike the flags of the PRC and ROC (CCP and Kuomintang, respectively), while also being associated with the efforts of Dr. Sun Yat-sen, an early proponent of Chinese Republicanism.

Not a good idea for the reasons Jon said. I would say make a brand new flag.

Marc A

[kingbaldrick]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Kan

OTOH, this flag also remind people the Warlord era...

Oh dear, I did not know that. If that's not a good choice, I'm unsure of what a suitable replacement for the PRC flag would be.

[LeoXiao]

Speaking of flags, I remember there being an old design that was red but had a yellow (or white, i forget) sun emblem in the center. I liked it a lot.

[kingbaldrick]

Originally Posted by LeoXiao

Speaking of flags, I remember there being an old design that was red but had a yellow (or white, i forget) sun emblem in the center. I liked it a lot.

I think you mean this design:



Pity that the "Five Races" flag reminds the Chinese of the warlord era, or maybe these flags could be used as the Naval Jack and Ensign, respectively.