AHC: A Less Balkanized Europe

The challenge is to make Europe in present-day consists of seven until ten nations, with the POD no earlier than 1453. OTL situation of Turkey and Russia (where majority of the territory is outside Europe) is allowed, but they will be still counted as parts of Europe as well and thus included in "seven until ten" limit of the challenge.
Multiple bonus points for a map...

(is this harder or easier than its African counterparts...?)

And anyway, below is how "Europe" is defined in this thread:

From The Rise and Fall of the Great Powers:

"Nevertheless, the fact remains that had the Habsburg rulers achieved all of their limited, regional aims - even their defensive aims - the mastery of Europe would virtually have been theirs. The Ottoman Empire would have been pushed back, along the North African coast and out of eastern Mediterranean waters. Heresy would have been suppressed within Germany. The revolt of the Netherlands would have been crushed. Friendly regimes would have been maintained in France and England. Only Scandinavia, Poland, Muscovy, and the lands still under Ottoman rule would not have been subject to Hapsburg power and influence - and the concomitant triumph of the Counter-Reformation."

States include:

1: Holy Roman Empire.
2: Spain (including Portugal).
3: Whatever happens with the British isles - this could, I suppose, be one state at some point.
4: France.
5: Denmark-Norway. (is this one state or two for purposes of this?)
6: Sweden
7: Poland
8: Muscovy/Russia.
9: Ottoman Empire
10: Hungary (which is not a part of the HRE, just the Hapsburg inheritance - though it could be incorporated into said empire, I suppose)

What happens to Venice? The Papal States? This probably is still over ten.

How you manage to achieve such total Hapsburgwank is beyond me, though. But its one of the few things that come to mind outside the megastates of Eurofed of something that could absorb any meaningful number of separate (OTL) nations.

Denmar-Norway could be united with Sweden in some kind of Kalmar Union to create a single Scandinavian nation.

- Kelenas

Find a way to freeze the geopolitics of Europe to 1881 or so

Austria-Hungary, Germany, Switzerland, Denmark-Norway, Sweden, Russia,
Ottoman Empire, England, France, Spain, Portugal, Italy, the Netherlands, Greece...

And that's just offhand.

1. Iberia.
2. Great Britain + Ireland.
3. France.
4. Russia.
5. Ottoman Empire.
6. Habsburg HRE
7. Poland-Lithuania
8. Scandinavia
9. Italy
10. Hungary (ruled by a Habsburg cadet)

Don't Napoleon-wanks and/or Nazi-wanks usually fill these criteria?

Elfwine said:

1: Holy Roman Empire.
2: Spain (including Portugal).
3: Whatever happens with the British isles - this could, I suppose, be one state at some point.
4: France.
5: Denmark-Norway. (is this one state or two for purposes of this?)
6: Sweden
7: Poland
8: Muscovy/Russia.
9: Ottoman Empire
10: Hungary (which is not a part of the HRE, just the Hapsburg inheritance - though it could be incorporated into said empire, I suppose)

Click to expand...

Really, if anything, Poland doesn't need to exist. OTL went without it until relatively recently.

And Den-Norway might as well include Sweden to finish off Scandinavia.

1. Sweden, incorporating parts of Finland
2. Russia, incorporating parts of Finland, most of Poland, perhaps Romania and various small states
3. Great Britain and Ireland
4. Denmark-Norway, including Iceland
5. France, including parts of Belgium, Luxembourg, Corsica etc
6. Holy Roman Empire, Southern Italian peninsula and Sicily etc.
7. Iberia
8. Austria-Hungary
9. Greece
10. Holland including remaining parts of Belgium
Leftovers including former Switzerland divided between the above players.

Basilisk said:

Really, if anything, Poland doesn't need to exist. OTL went without it until relatively recently.

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No nation "needs to exist". Poland was listed because the Hapsburg UberWank doesn't get rid of it. OTL had it for the better part of the period between 1453 and the present, too - and not as some minor state either for the first half.

And Den-Norway might as well include Sweden to finish off Scandinavia.

Click to expand...

It might, but again, its listed because this still leaves those nations.

Not sure how you manage to make Sweden reunite with Denmark-Norway after the Kalmar Union of the crowns has collapsed to begin with, let alone how to make one country of from three. I mean, sure, you could come up with something arbitrary involving convenient royal deaths and marriages, but how that leads to it being absorbed into one Scandinavia I'm not sure.

EAF602Whizz said:

1. Sweden, incorporating parts of Finland
2. Russia, incorporating parts of Finland, most of Poland, perhaps Romania and various small states
3. Great Britain and Ireland
4. Denmark-Norway, including Iceland
5. France, including parts of Belgium, Luxembourg, Corsica etc
6. Holy Roman Empire, Southern Italian peninsula and Sicily etc.
7. Iberia
8. Austria-Hungary
9. Greece
10. Holland including remaining parts of Belgium
Leftovers including former Switzerland divided between the above players.

Click to expand...

Questions.

1) How do you have both Austria-Hungary AND the Holy Roman Empire?
2) How do the "leftovers" get divided? As in, how do the powers just conveniently agree that small states make maps hard to draw?

Some of them are relatively easy to absorb, but it feels very artificial.

Also, what happened to the Ottoman Empire (and the states emerging from it)?

EAF602Whizz said:

1. Sweden, incorporating parts of Finland
2. Russia, incorporating parts of Finland, most of Poland, perhaps Romania and various small states
3. Great Britain and Ireland
4. Denmark-Norway, including Iceland
5. France, including parts of Belgium, Luxembourg, Corsica etc
6. Holy Roman Empire, Southern Italian peninsula and Sicily etc.
7. Iberia
8. Austria-Hungary
9. Greece
10. Holland including remaining parts of Belgium
Leftovers including former Switzerland divided between the above players.

Click to expand...

Wait, what? Austria leaves the HRE?

SavoyTruffle said:

Wait, what? Austria leaves the HRE?

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This reminds me of this http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?371321-Paris-ne-vaut-pas-une-messe!-A-Huguenot-IN-AAR/page1 for some reason.

Though even there, I think Austria is still a member (been a while since I read it all the way through).

These approaches are mostly historically oriented. How about a more ethno-religious division (like in India and the ex-USSR)

1. Iberia.
2. UK
3. France.
4. Russia.
5. Germany
6. Hungary
7. Poland-Bohemia
8. Scandinavia
9. Italy
10. "Orthodoxia" (ex Ottoman Balkans)

Or, with more multinational states:

1. Latin Union (France, Iberia, most of Italy)
2. Scandinavia (includes Ingermannland, Lettia & Estonia)
3. Great Britain
4. Central European Federation (Ex HRE, includes Czecho, Poland & Hungary. German - Non German balance. Kept together by LU &Russian pressure)
5. Russia
6. Greece
7. Romania
8. Jugoslavia (includes Bulgaria)
9. Ireland
10. Wildcard (i.e. Netherlands, Venice, ...)

Uriel said:

These approaches are mostly historically oriented. How about a more ethno-religious division (like in India and the ex-USSR)

1. Iberia.
2. UK
3. France.
4. Russia.
5. Germany
6. Hungary
7. Poland-Bohemia
8. Scandinavia
9. Italy
10. "Orthodoxia" (ex Ottoman Balkans)

Click to expand...

#8 and #10 seem...INCREDIBLY difficult to pull off, judging by OTL's events (as a reflection of the kind of issues getting in the way).

See below for more detail on my issues with this, since it applies to either.

Or, with more multinational states:

1. Latin Union (France, Iberia, most of Italy)
2. Scandinavia (includes Ingermannland, Lettia & Estonia)
3. Great Britain
4. Central European Federation (Ex HRE, includes Czecho, Poland & Hungary. German - Non German balance. Kept together by LU &Russian pressure)
5. Russia
6. Greece
7. Romania
8. Jugoslavia (includes Bulgaria)
9. Ireland
10. Wildcard (i.e. Netherlands, Venice, ...)

Click to expand...

I am really afraid to ask how #1 and #4 form. And by afraid to ask, what I really mean is that I don't want to have to spend the energy pointing out the problems with those states.

Kind of unpleasantly surprised how the Ottomans are driven out of Europe when a surviving Ottoman Empire in the SE is probably the easiest way to keep Balkanization (I'm so punny it hurts) down.

Seriously, can we at least try to look at what states could actually have grown larger and/or stayed more united, rather than trying to stick globs of territory together?

Its not even wank, its just...how on earth do you get a "Latin Union", for instance? That's France and Castile-Leon and Aragon and Portugal and however much of Italy you have in mind.

How are you going to make that one state?

When Sweden decides that Denmark's kings aren't welcome before the Kalmar Union even gets to the point of being one state - as opposed to a personal union of three - the problems should not be taken lightly. Picking this as an example because if it was as easy to form these unions as some suggestions are implying, that one would not have been such a complete failure.

Elfwine said:

Its not even wank, its just...how on earth do you get a "Latin Union", for instance? That's France and Castile-Leon and Aragon and Portugal and however much of Italy you have in mind.

How are you going to make that one state?

"Romance language Catholic countries" is...not enough to go with.

Click to expand...

Just have Isabelle of Castille married to the OTL husband of Anne of Brittany.

kasumigenx said:

Just have Isabelle of Castille married to the OTL husband of Anne of Brittany.

Click to expand...

And then of course everyone happily agrees to accept the union and the two realms with different histories and cultures and laws and institutions merge harmoniously.

Real life is a lot more complicated than that.

Even merging Aragon and Castile-Leon had issues, and the countries did unite into one.

OTL is probably not the best of all possible worlds from the standpoint of Many States Are A Bad Thing. But its not the worst, either.

And a post-1453 POD makes it harder to eliminate countries before they get going, such as making it so that Portugal is just a part of the united Iberian peninsula.

Impossible? Not necessarily. But more difficult than if you can nip the existence of "Portugal" as something separate from Leon in the bud.

Let me try:
1. Burgundy: with the Lowlands, Alsace-Lorraine, the Duchy of Burgundy and the Free County of Burgundy.
2. The Commonwealth of England and France (including Ireland and Wales)
3. Scotland (for the lulz)
4. Kalmar Union (with all Scandinavia, Finland and Estonia)
5. Bavarian dominated HRE (to have HRE dominated by some other than the usual suspects,)
6. Bohemia- Hungary (why not)
7. Iberia
8. Italy (evil spacefiller, and I'm out of ideas)
9. Poland- Lithuania (you gotta appreciate the clichés)
10. Ottoman Empire (because they conveniently swallowed most of the Balkans)
11. Khanate of the Golden Horde (dominates the Russkies)

Darn, I should remove Scotland to get it down to 10.

Superstates should have their best chancesin the aftermath of a big war.

Orthodoxia might have a chance, when the ottomans get kicked out of Europe in asingle move instead of step by step.

For the rest I was thinking allong the lines of a stronger 1848 movement.

The Latin Union could also happen through a dynastic unification of France, Spain & Neaple (Louis XIV tried it)

yourworstnightmare said:

Let me try:
1. Burgundy: with the Lowlands, Alsace-Lorraine, the Duchy of Burgundy and the Free County of Burgundy.
2. The Commonwealth of England and France (including Ireland and Wales)
3. Scotland (for the lulz)
4. Kalmar Union (with all Scandinavia, Finland and Estonia)
5. Bavarian dominated HRE (to have HRE dominated by some other than the usual suspects,)
6. Bohemia- Hungary (why not)
7. Iberia
8. Italy (evil spacefiller, and I'm out of ideas)
9. Poland- Lithuania (you gotta appreciate the clichés)
10. Ottoman Empire (because they conveniently swallowed most of the Balkans)
11. Khanate of the Golden Horde (dominates the Russkies)

Darn, I should remove Scotland to get it down to 10.

Click to expand...

The best part of this, by far, is having the Ottoman Empire as one of the ten states. You sir get the prize for being the only one who seems to have done any thought.



P.S. Yes, Scotland is cool.

Uriel said:

Superstates should have their best chancesin the aftermath of a big war.

Click to expand...

...how? When has anything like this happened?

Especially as most European big wars have been between states that have a vested interest in stopping a big state and the big state with a vested interest in getting bigger - mutually incompatible goals, in other words.

Orthodoxia might have a chance, when the ottomans get kicked out of Europe in asingle move instead of step by step.

Click to expand...

Yeah, its not as if Serbs and Bulgarians have any meaningful differences or arguments or anything like that.

Not to mention that the Ottomans getting kicked out in a single move would be one hell of a victory. Even looking at this in 1453.

For the rest I was thinking allong the lines of a stronger 1848 movement.

The Latin Union could also happen through a dynastic unification of France, Spain & Neaple (Louis XIV tried it)

Click to expand...

A stronger 1848 movement is not going to debalkanize Europe, though.

As for a dynastic unification of France, Spain, and Naples...good luck making that work. Le Roy Mauvaise (if my quick check for translation is accurate) and heirs would have had trouble making that last even if he did win that war.

A temporary Latin Union? Sure, I can buy that. A long lasting empire? No.