AHC: Break the Old Firm's dominance

Of the 114 years the Scottish Football League and Scottish Premier League have been in existence, 95 championships have been won by the Old Firm (for the uninitiated, the Glasgow clubs Celtic and Rangers). The longest period where neither Old Firm team won the championship was between 1982-83 and 1984-85 (when the championships were won by Dundee United, and Aberdeen twice respectively).

My question for you, is how would one go about breaking this Glaswegian dominance, and make Scottish football more competitive, or at least introduce a third team into the equation. I can think of a few PODs of my own, but I would be interested in hearing other's ideas first, as Scottish football is by no means my area of footballing expertise.
 

celt

Banned
You need to have one side in Edinburgh to start with,not sure how you can do that I think Hearts and Hibernian have their own sectarian differences though not half as bad as the Glasgow sides.

Other than that you have Alex Ferguson turning down the Man Utd job in 86 for some reason and carrying on to build up Aberdeen, or just have a rich Arab or Russian take over ownership of a club which isn't ASB as stranger things have happened in football.
 
Hahaha, rich Russian taking over a club in the late 80s, that's a good one. Although nowadays...

An Edinburgh team's your best bet - Glasgow's football market is already dominated and highly polarised by Celtic and Rangers.

Beef up both Hearts and Hibernian, a "New Firm" sort of thing, and you could have a less dominant Glasgow pairing.

The problem with a multilateral competition is Scotland's small population - a mere five million today. With the Auld Enemy's massive markets to the south, it would take something quite spectacular to make more than two clubs in Scotland challenge for regular honours. Hearts were the last club to come close to challenging the usual two, but some odd board decisions ruined it (from memory, it seemed to me that the chairman was trying to turn Hearts into a Lithuanian All-Stars XI)

Even the English Premier League, catering to a football-mad population of fifty million (plus the lucrative and captive overseas markets) only has three or four clubs who can mount truly credible title challenges. One other way to kill the Glasgow hold is to kill one of the two Old Firm clubs themselves. Very difficult, barring insolvency.
 
My question for you, is how would one go about breaking this Glaswegian dominance, and make Scottish football more competitive
Easy. Allow both Rangers and Celtic to join the English league (as long as they remove themselves (bags, baggage and supporters) totally from Scotland).

But as I would insist that they join the lowest division, I guess it won't happen........
 

celt

Banned
Hahaha, rich Russian taking over a club in the late 80s, that's a good one. Although nowadays...
Who said anything about the late 80s?

Is their any way towns like Aberdeen or Dundee or end up with bigger populations(and why the fuck has Dundee got 2sides?)so the football teams have bigger fanbases?
 

Fletch

Kicked
Of the 114 years the Scottish Football League and Scottish Premier League have been in existence, 95 championships have been won by the Old Firm (for the uninitiated, the Glasgow clubs Celtic and Rangers). The longest period where neither Old Firm team won the championship was between 1982-83 and 1984-85 (when the championships were won by Dundee United, and Aberdeen twice respectively).

My question for you, is how would one go about breaking this Glaswegian dominance, and make Scottish football more competitive, or at least introduce a third team into the equation. I can think of a few PODs of my own, but I would be interested in hearing other's ideas first, as Scottish football is by no means my area of footballing expertise.
I thought of a timeline for this, and even got round to starting to write it, but never bothered putting it on ah.com for the sake I believe there would have been a lack of interest...

Heres a general outline if I may...

83-84. Scottish League meets to discuss future of game. Scottish Football League Fund is established, in which every club gives 50p from gate receipts to pot which is invested. 50% of profits are given to clubs based on league position at end of season, 50% are reinvested. During this season, Dundee United win the European Cup.(in otl they were cheated out of it in the semi-finals by Roma, a former director the other day admitted to bribing the ref in the second leg link..) Aberdeen win the League.

84-85. Aberdeen retain the league, and Dundee United win a Scottish Cup and League Cup Double(their first Scottish Cup).

85-86. Dundee United win Cup Winners Cup. Hearts win the League(they came within a minute in otl). Aberdeen win the Scottish Cup and Hibs win the League Cup. Rangers lose more games than they win. Alex Ferguson head off to Old Trafford.

86-87. Rangers appoint Hearts Manager Alex McDonald as their new manager(in otl Souness). They go on to finish second behind Aberdeen under Alex Smith, ensuring the OF have not won the league in six years. Football Fund starts pumping a small level of funds into the game...

87-88. Celtic break the non-OF run, winning the league, and Rangers win League Cup, but Aberdeen beat Dundee United in Scottish Cup Final.

88-89. Aberdeen win the League. The League Cup goes to Hearts and the Scottish Cup Rangers. Agreement is reached over reconstruction. Premier Division to be increased to 12 teams.

And so on....Gradually the football fund brings funds into the game, ensuring that Scottish football does not fall into the hole it did in otl indeed making it a helluva lot stronger by today, the lack of a Souness revolution mean the Old Firm do not go signing England internationals and attempting to spend themselves into oblivion,. Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee United all emerge as strong contenders and eventually an 18 team Premier Division is recreated.

Oh and keep the Tennents sixes!
 
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Fletch

Kicked
Nice idea, though I'm surprised you didn't find a way to wank St. Johnstone!
I never took the idea into the nineties.....:D

Seriously though, the very fact that Dundee United probably should have won the European Cup in otl is big enough on its own to suggest the current state of affairs was not inevitable I think.
 

Fletch

Kicked
(and why the fuck has Dundee got 2sides?)
The same reason Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool, Bristol etc. have two sides. History. I wouldn't want to take anyones club away from them. Merger would destroy football in Dundee, and harm St.Johnstone, as visits from United and Scumdee fans give the club more money.
 

celt

Banned
The same reason Manchester, Glasgow, Liverpool, Bristol etc. have two sides. History. I wouldn't want to take anyones club away from them. Merger would destroy football in Dundee, and harm St.Johnstone, as visits from United and Scumdee fans give the club more money.

But if they had started off with just one side,wouldn't it be able to pull on alarger fanbase to help take on the old firm?
 

Fletch

Kicked
But if they had started off with just one side,wouldn't it be able to pull on alarger fanbase to help take on the old firm?
Dundee FC were formed from a merger of two clubs(Dundee Wanderers and Dundee Our Boys)in 1893. They were formed so Dundee could have a Scottish League club.

At the time it was fashionable to have a club for the working Irish communities in the cities. That is why Dundee Hibernian were formed in 1909. They became Dundee United in 1923, ending any idea of teams for either community in the city.

It had nothing to do with Rangers or Celtic. I would go as far as to say it aided the development of football in Dundee, as the rivalry spurred each team on, although at present Dundee United are by far the better of the two.

Also, Aberdeen has a similar population to Dundee(larger when you count they have the North East effectvely to themselves) and the crowds aren't much different to Dundee Uniteds.
 

Fletch

Kicked
Here we go....

The Chairmen listened intently to the figures being given out by the young economist from the Royal Bank of Scotland. Salmond put his plan forward with vigour, stating that it could, in the long run potentially lead to a Scottish game that was richer than that of England. Initially, they couldn’t believe the figures. Somehow they couldn’t, wouldn’t stack up, but yet they did. Wallace Mercer entered the discussion at this point. He had been contacted by the young man with the idea a fortnight previously. Initially, he had the same element of disbelief as the others, but yet he had now been turned around and with the zeal of a convert was now enthusiastically behind the plan.

The plan in itself was simple. The average crowd in the Scottish Premier Division in season 1982-83 was 14,311. For every ticket sold in Premier Division games, 50 pence would be put into a Scottish Football League fund, alongside 5p for First Division games and 2p in the Second Division. This fund, it was hoped would raise upwards of £1,300,000 over the coming season. This money would be managed by a new investment group, who would invest the money in the stock market. 50% of any profit would be given back to the clubs, shared out equally by division, and the rest reinvested. 85% would be given to the Premier Division clubs, 10% to the First Division and 5% to the Second.

The idea would lead to higher gate prices, but the belief that this was in the good interests of the game saw it persevere. With only three clubs voting against (Stranraer, Clydebank and St. Mirren), the plan quickly became a reality.

It would be introduced from the following season. And thus, the seed from which the strength of the modern Scottish game was sown.

1983-84.

Aberdeen kicked off the season as favourites for the league title, having won the European Cup Winners Cup the previous season, but Dundee United under the astute tutelage of Jim McLean could not easily be discounted. If you added the Celtic team who were looking to the future under new manager David Hay and no-one could under-estimate Rangers, who would always be there or thereabouts under the inimitable Jock Wallace.
 
If anyone doubted it would be a strange season, they were to be disavowed of this notion early on when on the opening day, St. Mirren defeated Rangers 3-0 at Ibrox in front of a disappointing crowd of just 18,000. It would set the store for a bad opening few games for the Govan side, who went onto lose their next two games in a tricky double header, where they went to Pittodrie, losing 2-0 to Aberdeen and in the next fixture at home to Dundee United, losing 1-0 to a well placed Paul Sturrock drive from the edge of the area.
 
It was their New Firm rivals, Aberdeen who were to draw the first silverware of the season however, securing the European Super Cup, with Alex Fergusons men defeating the reigning European Champions Hamburg 2-0 over two legs with John Hewitt scoring a double at Pittodrie to see the Reds through to their second European trophy in two years.
 
Rangers went on to show they were still a team with aspirations in November, when an Ally McCoist hat-trick saw them defeat their rivals Celtic in a close match in front of 74,393 at Hampden. This performance however disguised how far both clubs were off the top of the league, with Aberdeen leading Dundee United by a point, six clear of third placed Celtic as the teams went into the new year.
 
For the Dundee club, this was to be a special season. In Europe, as the season drew on, they continued to do well in Europe, defeating the champions of Malta, Belgium and then Austria in a run which saw them play Roma in the European Cup semi-final. In the first leg at Tannadice, they defeated the Italian team 2-0, with new signing Mo Johnston from Partick Thistle scoring what was the pick of the goals. As they awaited the return in Rome, news filtered through that the referee had contacted FIFA amidst a scandal that Roma had attempted to bribe him with $50,000.
 
This news led to an international scandal, but it was agreed that whilst the investigation was ongoing about the conduct of Roma, the game would go ahead, but with a different referee. The pressure of the situation clearly told on the Roma players, whose club, if found guilty would not only be banned from Europe for a season, but in a move by the Italian league, relegated to Serie B.
 
In the end, United held their nerve, when despite going a goal down from Pruzzo, they doggedly defended their lead until a break sent Davie Dodds through with four minutes to go to seal the tie. Dundee United had reached their first European Cup Final, Scotland’s first since Celtic lost to Feyenoord in 1970. They were to face Liverpool. Aberdeen’s season was going almost as well in Europe, reaching the semi-finals of the Cup Winners Cup, only to fall 3--0 on aggregate to Porto.
 
Domestically, from January onwards, there was no stopping Alex Fergusons Aberdeen side. From a point they almost looked invincible, in two incredible matches in March, defeating Rangers 3-0 and Celtic 4-1, both away from home. This dominance was not to go unrewarded when with three games to go they defeated St. Mirren at a packed Pittodrie to lift the title for the second time in three years. At the other end of the table St. Johnstone and Motherwell were relegated, with Dundee United finishing second, Celtic third and Rangers fourth.
 
The Scottish Cup was far more unpredictable, when at the semi-final stage, the shock team in the tournament, Clydebank defeated a strong Celtic team for the right to play Hearts, who defeated Aberdeen on penalties in the other semi. Despite putting up a strong show, Clydebank were outclassed by the team from the capital as a young John Robertson scored an overhead kick to see off the threat of the Bankies.
 
The season was to climax not in Scotland however, but in the Olympic Stadium in Rome, where Dundee United had gone through just weeks earlier against the Italian Champions. Liverpool lined up Grobelaar, Neal, Kennedy, Lawrenson, Whelan, Hanson, Dalglish, Lee, Rush, Johnston, Souness. Dundee United for their part had a first eleven of McAlpine, Stark, Malpas, Gough, Hegarty, Narey, Bannon, Milne, Kirkwood, Sturrock, Dodds.

It has been asked by many how in a match dominated by such an extent by Liverpool that United ended up taking the trophy back to Scotland, but it is not a question which can be easily answered. The very fact that Hamish McAlpine was man of the match stated more about the game than anything else. In the end, it was a late winner from the super-sub Mo Johnston, who had been brought on for Ralph Milne which won United the European Cup for the first time. This led to more battering by Liverpool, but United’s defence held firm. Scotland had its third European trophy in three years. Dundee United were the champions of Europe.
 
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If we were to look for a very recent way in for breaking the Old Firm, it would be 2005/06, when Hearts, with Lithuanian backing, were topping the table under George Burley's guidance, and would probably have won it (though the Old Firm are famously resilient), had Romanov's interference not proven fatal. Perhaps Romanov doesn't take control of the club, but continues to back them financially (hard to see why he would), or perhaps Burley decides to stick it out.

Looking further back, Airdrieonians had a period of nearly winning the title in the 20s. If they won, they could have had a decent period of dominance, especially with Hughie Gallacher, but perhaps this is too early to create a true contender, especially not in Airdrie, where there's a small population and they'll always have to complete with the Glasgow clubs.

I've got to agree with what others said, the 80s when Aberdeen won big and had Alex Ferguson are probably the best time. If Ron Atkinson had been sacked earlier from Manchester United (Nick Hancock proposed a WI where Brighton won the 1983 FA Cup Final and Atkinson was sacked for wearing more silverware at Wembley than he won there) then Alex Ferguson could have had longer at Aberdeen to win and build a dynasty. It's a good time to do it, Aberdeen's benefiting from the North Sea Oil boom, it's a big city far enough away from Glasgow and Edinburgh to have a strong independent fan base, Scottish teams aren't banned from Europe like English teams are.
 

Fletch

Kicked
It's more about avoiding the Souness revolution. Rangers, aided by the european ban on English clubs as the eighties came to an end were signing England international footballers, and totally reversed the flow of talent south. This led to a battle of the budgets, and only Celtic(after nearly going bust), could keep up.

That is why the Old Firm dominate today.

If you somehow gain income from other sources, (i.e the football fund idea I had), and avoid Graeme Souness taking over at Ibrox, then its possible that right into the nineties you would see Aberdeen, Hearts, Hibs and Dundee United all winning titles.

Of course Saints will win the cup this year, does that count...;):D
 
I'm not the best informed on this issue, but I personally find it inevitable that the Old Firm will be the largest clubs in terms of support, considering Glasgow is by far the largest city in Scotland. And it tends to be the best supported clubs that end up winning the vast majority of League titles, in any country.
 
What happens Scottish football when they eventually feck off to the premiership to come alternately 15th and 16th each season? Do new Scottish giants emerge and how come the Edinburgh clubs haven't won the Scottish titlte since the 50s, one of the rare capital cities in that position!
 

Fletch

Kicked
What happens Scottish football when they eventually feck off to the premiership to come alternately 15th and 16th each season? Do new Scottish giants emerge and how come the Edinburgh clubs haven't won the Scottish titlte since the 50s, one of the rare capital cities in that position!
There is more chance of me having a threesome with Pussy Galore and Honey Ryder in the James Bond films than the Old Firm moving to England.

The best you could do without major change is narrow the gap. You could do this by a few ways...

  • Have an SPL Squad limit of 25 players each season per-club.
  • Insist that all but five must be brought through the youth system of an SFA affiliated club or scheme.
  • Bring in a maximum wage of 40% of the previous seasons turnover of a club.
 
BTW What has happened To Scottish Football?

AFAIK the SPL insists on each Scottish Premiership club having a certain quota of under 21 Scottish players in a club squad/ on the bench during a match in an effort to develop Scottish football. Now I know this is not an original question, as many of us football lovers have wondered about it- but when I was a boy in the 70s and indeed well into the 80s and before my time at all Scotland produced incredibly gifted players and the English top division was full of such fantastic talent and indeed the much maligned often unfairly SPL is about 10th in Europe although there are many foreign lads there and of course the ROI has developed a habit of robbing some of your best players eg watch James McCarthy, reminescent of a young Liam Brady making his competitive and qualifying debut for us tommorrow against Macedonia! I was listening to a sports hiostorian - what a job speaking on world cup history and he said Scotland back in the 20s had the best side in Europe and had the tournament started then and had Scotland played in it, Scotland would probably have at least 3 world cups under their kilts by now! And Glasgow was the first great soccer metropolis!
 
BTW feck the threesomes, i'd be satisfied with Halle Berry, i'd even visit Ibrox in a Republic shirt and watch a game in the Gers' end if she'd come with me!
 
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