What state that would be the most interesting replacement of the Roman Empire?
- Thread starter Zuvarq
- Start date
I voted for Massilia.
It's on the fringes of Greek power, near to Carthaginian power, plus is next to urbanising Gaul.
Even if it gets taken over by the Gauls, Gaulish Massilia will have potential at expansion.
It's on the fringes of Greek power, near to Carthaginian power, plus is next to urbanising Gaul.
Even if it gets taken over by the Gauls, Gaulish Massilia will have potential at expansion.
Massilia. Carthage is good but predictable, Etruscans are Romans under a different name. 
Rex Romanum
Banned
I vote "Other", because I don't think any of those on the list would be more interesting than the glorious Roman Empire
As someone else has pointed out in the other thread, it's very unlikely that the Eastern Hellenistic kingdoms (Seleucids, Ptolemies, etc) to be interested in the affairs on Western Mediterranean. On the other hand, the Western states (Carthage, Massilia, etc) didn't have the will nor capabilities to forge an empire on the scale of OTL Roman Empire.
If I really have to choose, I would prefer the Mediterranean to be divided into three or four hegemons...
As someone else has pointed out in the other thread, it's very unlikely that the Eastern Hellenistic kingdoms (Seleucids, Ptolemies, etc) to be interested in the affairs on Western Mediterranean. On the other hand, the Western states (Carthage, Massilia, etc) didn't have the will nor capabilities to forge an empire on the scale of OTL Roman Empire.
If I really have to choose, I would prefer the Mediterranean to be divided into three or four hegemons...
I beg to differ. The Greek states were quite interested indeed in the Greek parts of the Western Mediterranean at least--case in point: First, Second, and Third Sicilian War. All wars between states in Greece allied with Syracuse, against Carthage. And--the Pyrrhic War. Regarding the western states... Carthage could easily have formed a large empire with either a First or Second Punic War POD. Massilia is a little harder, but have it conquered by Gauls, and the Gallic Massilians can probably conquer the Western half of the Mediterranean within a few centuries.
I didn't quite mean that the states would become as large as the Roman Empire did OTL. Just a Mediterranean hegemon, or cohegemon with another state. Though, once they dominate half of the Mediterranean, they could probably take the rest of it too, and a little bit elsewhere.
I said Macedonians after Alexander, because a lot of times they aren't given the credit they deserve. One could start with Philip V defeating the Romans and invading Italy at the same time as Hannibal Barca(perhaps stealing his thunder- yeah, pun intended ) and maybe bringing Magna Graeca beneath the contol of Macedonia
also, I don't think Epirus was on the list, but that'd be another interesting one.
) and maybe bringing Magna Graeca beneath the contol of Macedoniaalso, I don't think Epirus was on the list, but that'd be another interesting one.
Voted Carthage, but I'd love to see enormous Syracuse or Arverni empires. Or a large empire carved by Pyrrhus - I've always loved that scenario.
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Well, Western Mediterranean =/= Sicily and Magna Graecia. I don't think any of the Greeks to be interested in annexing Iberia and Gaul...
But it's still absolutely no way for them to established a total sovereignty over the Eastern states/kingdoms...
Ah, alright...but I think the bolded part is more plausible: a Mediterranean that divided amongst two or three different states.
Not really...especially if the status quo could be achieved and maintained betweeen those cohegemons.
During the Third Sicilian War, Agathocles invaded the Carthaginian mainland with 14,000 men. Now, I doubt he could have forged an empire, but if a more powerful Syracuse (let's say it has all of Magna Graecia), or really any Greek state more powerful than Syracuse was at the time of Agathocles, did the same thing, and succeeded, then they could have taken territory from Carthage, maybe made an independent Greek state like was done to Cyrenaica and the Ptolemaic dynasty (though that was more like a revolt--this mostly-Punic/Numidian/Lybian state would be appointed with a Greek ruler perhaps, and then settled with Greeks from one or more mainland Greek city-states). Syracuse in this case would be quite happy to take Sardinia and Corsica along with Sicily. If a state, that had established this 'Mediterranean empire with only part of the Mediterranean' like we've said, that had the Magna Graecian cities as its puppets, occupied parts of the Carthaginian Republic, they'd be plenty happy to annex other parts as well.
If another state doesn't establish a huge empire on the other side of the Mediterranean, then they easily can. Hell, they could even if one did--look at what powerful Rome did to the absolute monster Carthage in the First Punic War.
One of the cohegemons could easily go to war with another for some tiny little reason like the Roman Republic did with Carthage.
Rex Romanum
Banned
Eh, I won't call Carthage an "absolute monster". Granted, they have powerful navy, but it's really innovative...as has been proved by Roman corvus.
And anyway, the "classic" problems with Carthage's Mediterranean empire are that Carthage didn't have standing army nor the ability to assimilate conquered people like Rome had. So unless some reforms were enacted (and still, there is no prove that Carthage could have done those reforms), I don't think Carthage could establish total hegemony over Mediterranean.
Roman Republic and Carthage before the First Punic War weren't ideal examples of cohegemons, IMHO (they have same interest on Sicily, Corsica, and Sardinia)
Corvus?
Lets'see.
Isn't that this thing supposed to have been used in First Punic War, without any archeological trace, with very few and later sources talking about it, and with reconstitution have showed that it would be disastrous for the balance of the vessel?
Lets'see.
Isn't that this thing supposed to have been used in First Punic War, without any archeological trace, with very few and later sources talking about it, and with reconstitution have showed that it would be disastrous for the balance of the vessel?
Rex Romanum
Banned
Hmmm...then I'm interested to know how do you think the Romans were able to won the First Punic War in the first place, if you don't mind...?