AHC: Brazilian Empire on the Pacific

Jajax · Mar 14, 2011

I originally posted this in Yelnoc's "Give me an AHC" thread, but decided it was too interesting an idea to leave there:

Is it possible, with a POD in 1800 or later, to have a Brazil with a Pacific coast, as well as a colonial empire including parts of Africa, but without inheriting its empire from Portugal or anything of the sort?

Bonus points for parts of Polynesia being in the empire; 1000 internets for Brazilian colonies on the North American west coast. Infinite heavenly reward for a good slice of Australia.

Yes, I know that last bit is horribly ASB.
Maps appreciated, but by no means necessary.

Emperor-of-New-Zealand · Mar 14, 2011

Jajax said:
including parts of Africa, but without inheriting its empire from Portugal or anything of the sort?

Not really. Brazil could feasibly take over Portuguese colonies, but starting some of its own in Africa is ASB.

iori · Mar 14, 2011

Jajax said:
as well as a colonial empire including parts of Africa, but without inheriting its empire from Portugal or anything of the sort?

Yes and no.

It could have some African colonies that are'nt part of Angola Sao Tome or Guinea, but they'd be trhe result of inheriting the aforementioned and having them as staging points for further colonization.

Mauro Motta · Mar 15, 2011

Iori said:
Yes and no.

It could have some African colonies that are'nt part of Angola Sao Tome or Guinea, but they'd be trhe result of inheriting the aforementioned and having them as staging points for further colonization.

Yeah. One detail that might help is that Portugal used some
Brazilians for the administration of the African colonies, because they were already acclimated to a land warmer than Europe (though not as hot as Africa).

Thande · Mar 15, 2011

Brazil driving to the Pacific seems rather difficult considering the Andes (and all the cross Hispanophones in the way).

mowque · Mar 15, 2011

I have my TL's Communist Brazil being the USSR to Ecuador's Hungary. They have the Galapagos Islands. Does that count?

Gonzaga · Mar 15, 2011

Thande said:
Brazil driving to the Pacific seems rather difficult considering the Andes (and all the cross Hispanophones in the way).

That's pretty much the problem. Not only the Andes, but also in order to get there first the Brazilians would need to cross all that tropical jungles and swamps between the most inhabited areas near to the Atlantic seaside and the Andes. And the few lucky who arrive there would be in the middle of the most inhabited Hispanophone areas of South America.

The only way that I could ever imagine a "Brazil" with a West Coast would be using a very early POD, where Portugal manages to acquire the Plata basin and starts to expand across the OTL Argentina, reaching Chile later. But even that would be a hard task.

Nugax · Mar 15, 2011

Well if the Portuguese end up with claims on Terra del Fuego some how, you could see a navally orientated Brazil acting on it and ending up with a pacific coast that way.

Going through the Andes is just massively unlikely, but if it did happen I'd see it occuring at Ecuador (closest to major amazon routes and quite a narrow part of the mountains for railroad building/garrison).

Beedok · Mar 15, 2011

Perhaps if they managed to take Bolivia (or even just part of it) as a stepping stone? It doesn't seem to unreasonbale, especially if they can ally with one of the other South American nations.

wtw · Mar 15, 2011

Peruvain-Brazilian Empire like the Austro-Hungarian prehaps?

Nasei · Mar 29, 2011

Two possible ways for Brazil to get a Pacific coast.

1: A more lucky Aleixo de Garcia on the 1521-1525 raid on the Incan empire.

After a shipwreck he lived a few years with locals.
He heard stories of a mountain of silver and a "White King" inland to the west that ruled many cities.
With help of the Guaraní Indians he explored the area to west of the Paraguay river entering in the Chaco region and finally reached the Incan empire, nine years before the Castilian invasion of the Andes of 1533.
After looting the area and know that an army of the Inca Huayna Cápac was getting close, Aleixo left the Incan empire just to be killed by some Indians near the Paraguay river.
It was that huge loot of silver that later give the name of the region of "Rio de la Plata".
That new route was also later used by other European explorers as well the Jesuits.

So what if he manage to survive the attack and reaches the coast with his huge loot and news of an rich empire to the west?
True the Europeans diseases only then entered the Incan empire and Huayna Cápac is still alive as well his huge army.
But taking in account the time needed to prepare a new Portuguese royal expedition by the king, probably only in 1527 would it reach the Incan empire to find it in the middle of a civil war and suffering from the European diseases.
Taking in account what happened OTL the Portuguese could conquer at least the Southern part of the empire, if not all of it and annexed to Brazil.

2: D. Pedro I receives the news faster and acts

In OTL when Simón Bolívar was moving in the Spanish colonies and declaring the independence of them the rulers of Alto Peru (today's Bolívia) asked for help of the Mato Grosso Portuguese troops.
They even suggested that Alto Peru should join the Reino Unido de Portugal, Brasil e Algarves( the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and Algarves), because some supported the claim of the Portuguese queen Carlota Joaquina to all Southern American lands after the abdication of her brother Ferndinad VII.
The Portuguese troops did stop for a few months the advance of the liberation armies, because by then the independence of Brazil happened.
As the governor of Mato Grosso take so many time to get the news to the D. Pedro I that by the time he get all the news he was fighting for his own country.

So what if the Mato Grosso governor send news at once that people wore asking to join the kingdom to D. Pedro I?
Now he could get the troops for more parts of the empire to help to secure the Alto Peru, the problem would be later when the Brazilian independence happens.
It probably would take him about the same time to finish the war with Portugal, because of the English help (or lack of it from the Portuguese point of view).

It probably is to late to Brazil manages to get a firm grip in all of the Alto Peru, because it was so politically divided.
When we looks to the wars of Bolívia we can notice that their solders wore good in the highlands, but on the lowlands they had a lot of problems.
So in the end Brazil can get not only the lands that got in OTL but also the Chaco region that Paraguay got in OTL as most of the state of Santa Cruz and the Antofagasta region, that Chile conquered OTL.

Gonzaga · Mar 29, 2011

Nasei said:
Two possible ways for Brazil to get a Pacific coast.

1: A more lucky Aleixo de Garcia on the 1521-1525 raid on the Incan empire.

After a shipwreck he lived a few years with locals.
He heard stories of a mountain of silver and a "White King" inland to the west that ruled many cities.
With help of the Guaraní Indians he explored the area to west of the Paraguay river entering in the Chaco region and finally reached the Incan empire, nine years before the Castilian invasion of the Andes of 1533.
After looting the area and know that an army of the Inca Huayna Cápac was getting close, Aleixo left the Incan empire just to be killed by some Indians near the Paraguay river.
It was that huge loot of silver that later give the name of the region of "Rio de la Plata".
That new route was also later used by other European explorers as well the Jesuits.

So what if he manage to survive the attack and reaches the coast with his huge loot and news of an rich empire to the west?
True the Europeans diseases only then entered the Incan empire and Huayna Cápac is still alive as well his huge army.
But taking in account the time needed to prepare a new Portuguese royal expedition by the king, probably only in 1527 would it reach the Incan empire to find it in the middle of a civil war and suffering from the European diseases.
Taking in account what happened OTL the Portuguese could conquer at least the Southern part of the empire, if not all of it and annexed to Brazil.

The problem is that even if the Portuguese manage somehow to send a small force from the South to the Incan lands - and even that I think that is unlikely - soon or later the Spanish would be doing the same from the North, and the Portuguese would be "remembered" that they were exploring the wrong side of the Tordesillas Treaty.

Nasei said:
2: D. Pedro I receives the news faster and acts

In OTL when Simón Bolívar was moving in the Spanish colonies and declaring the independence of them the rulers of Alto Peru (today's Bolívia) asked for help of the Mato Grosso Portuguese troops.
They even suggested that Alto Peru should join the Reino Unido de Portugal, Brasil e Algarves( the United Kingdom of Portugal, Brazil and Algarves), because some supported the claim of the Portuguese queen Carlota Joaquina to all Southern American lands after the abdication of her brother Ferndinad VII.
The Portuguese troops did stop for a few months the advance of the liberation armies, because by then the independence of Brazil happened.
As the governor of Mato Grosso take so many time to get the news to the D. Pedro I that by the time he get all the news he was fighting for his own country.

So what if the Mato Grosso governor send news at once that people wore asking to join the kingdom to D. Pedro I?
Now he could get the troops for more parts of the empire to help to secure the Alto Peru, the problem would be later when the Brazilian independence happens.
It probably would take him about the same time to finish the war with Portugal, because of the English help (or lack of it from the Portuguese point of view).

It probably is to late to Brazil manages to get a firm grip in all of the Alto Peru, because it was so politically divided.
When we looks to the wars of Bolívia we can notice that their solders wore good in the highlands, but on the lowlands they had a lot of problems.
So in the end Brazil can get not only the lands that got in OTL but also the Chaco region that Paraguay got in OTL as most of the state of Santa Cruz and the Antofagasta region, that Chile conquered OTL.

Do you have the sources for this, because the story I knew was a bit different:

It wasn't all the rulers of Alto Peru. It was the governor of the Province of Chiquitos who sent the message asking for Brazilian military support and a probable annexation to the Empire in 1825, after our independence. He sent it to the provisory governor of Mato Grosso (because the one nominated by Pedro I was still going there or hadn't being defined yet, I can't remeber exactly now). But this governor thought it would be a good idea to promote himself as a "man of action", and sent a small force to Chiquitos without asking orders from Rio - he only sent a letter to Pedro I informing the Emperor about the situation and his "quick response".

The problem is that Pedro I and the Brazilian Parliament didn't want to upset their neighbouring countries. They already had too much trouble being accepted as the only monarchy in South America, and invade Alto Peru to impose a monarch - and a Lusitanian one - surely wouldn't improve their position. The things got more complicated because Simon Bolivar got the news about the Brazilian invasion, and he - or Sucre, I'm at work now and can't check the details - threatened to invade Brazil if the Brazilian forces didn't retreat from Chiquitos. And to make things worse, due to the serious problems of communication between Mato Grosso and Rio de Janeiro, the Emperor received Bolivar's letter with the threat before the letter of the governor informing the invasion had arrived to the Court.

Pedro I then immeadiatly order the retreat (although the troops had already came back before his letter had arrived) and sent the new governor to replace the provisory one.

Also, we need to remember that Brazil had no condition to fight in Alto Peru. At that same (1825/1828) we failed at keeping Uruguay, a place that we were helding since 1816, where there was a large Portuguese speaking minority, where we had a huge number of troops stationed, and with far easier communication with Brazil than Alto Peru. Also, we lost it in a war with Argentina, a country that had less population than Peru and Alto Peru and that we would actually threat with naval blockades (that would be impossible in landlocked Chiquitos). So, not good perspectives here.

Faeelin · Mar 30, 2011

Gonzaga said:
Also, we need to remember that Brazil had no condition to fight in Alto Peru. At that same (1825/1828) we failed at keeping Uruguay, a place that we were helding since 1816, where there was a large Portuguese speaking minority, where we had a huge number of troops stationed, and with far easier communication with Brazil than Alto Peru. Also, we lost it in a war with Argentina, a country that had less population than Peru and Alto Peru and that we would actually threat with naval blockades (that would be impossible in landlocked Chiquitos). So, not good perspectives here.

Why did Portugal lose to Argentina? I would have expected that since the Brazilian government was in theory more stable it would have had a much better position.

Gonzaga · Mar 30, 2011

Faeelin said:
Why did Portugal lose to Argentina? I would have expected that since the Brazilian government was in theory more stable it would have had a much better position.

Basically due to these factors: a) less internal support in Uruguay than the Argentines; b) the government was completely broke since 1821 and couldn't fund properly the troops. This problem becomes bigger when a great part of your soldiers are European mercenaries who refuse to fight or even rebell when not paid (as happened with German and Irish troops in Rio); c) Part of the troops came from the Northern provinces, and weren't used to the cold winters of the Plata; d) Incompetence of the military commanders.

Nugax · Mar 30, 2011

Faeelin said:
Why did Portugal lose to Argentina? I would have expected that since the Brazilian government was in theory more stable it would have had a much better position.

Argentina was unstable, but Buenos Aires province alone was a competent actor and did the actual fighting, and had the massive advantage of being right next to the theatre of war, with a substantial rebel force already in the country, and the splitting off of Uruguay being favoured by both Britain and France.

Also Brazil had other problems going on at the time.

Grey Wolf · Mar 30, 2011

Beedok said:
Perhaps if they managed to take Bolivia (or even just part of it) as a stepping stone? It doesn't seem to unreasonbale, especially if they can ally with one of the other South American nations.

Taking Bolivia seems the only reasonable way to get to the Pacific

Different end to the Spanish governance would probably be the key here, with more localised fighting rather than grand alliances so that different leaders get to do the fighting in Argentina, Chile, Bolivia and Peru, thus finding it harder going

You could then see a patchwork of weaker states that create their own troubles, dragging Brazil in

Of course, Brazil has to come into existence first!

Africa is confusing, but the slave trade would have to be the key. Maybe with Portugal under a successful Napoleonic conquest then the African colonies obviously end up being administered from Rio, and when Portugal eventually frees itself in some sort of uprising, Africa continues to look to Rio

A more secure Napoleonic hold on all of Iberia, maybe defeating the British and the juntas, might allow the misfired S American uprisings against the Spanish to have more chance of success?

Of course, European butterflies are going to be enormous...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Gonzaga · Mar 30, 2011

Grey Wolf said:
Taking Bolivia seems the only reasonable way to get to the Pacific

Different end to the Spanish governance would probably be the key here, with more localised fighting rather than grand alliances so that different leaders get to do the fighting in Argentina, Chile, Bolivia and Peru, thus finding it harder going

You could then see a patchwork of weaker states that create their own troubles, dragging Brazil in

Of course, Brazil has to come into existence first!

Actually taking Bolivia would be an impossible task. There would be no way to move armies from the Atlantic Coast to Bolivia in order to achieve that. The difficulties of the terrain, the lack of reliable routes, the jungles, swamps and tropical diseases would be an obstacle to this.

During the Tripple Alliance War, when Paraguay invaded the Province of Mato Grosso, we sent a force of 3,000 men to fight them there, only 700 survived the local conditions of the border, and even the majority of them were starving and with diseases.

Also, there is a big difference between the American expansion to the West and a probably Brazilian one. In North America, the lands conquered were distant border provinces of Mexico, most of it still wild nature, inhabited by natives only. In South America, expansion to the Pacific would mean to conquer core territories of the former Spanish Empire, inhabited by a hostile Hispanophones with access to modern weapons.

Grey Wolf said:
Africa is confusing, but the slave trade would have to be the key. Maybe with Portugal under a successful Napoleonic conquest then the African colonies obviously end up being administered from Rio, and when Portugal eventually frees itself in some sort of uprising, Africa continues to look to Rio

Well, this one is easier, because at least in Angola the local elites declared their support to the union with Brazil during the independence crisis, basically due to the profits that came from the slave trade. Of course, Portuguese and Bristish opposition wouldn't allow this to happen.

Uriel · Mar 30, 2011

I'm bookmarking this.

Also Spain did run the Phillipines as a part of one of the South American viceroyalities because of the economic connection through the Manila trade.

Maybe Portugal does something similar? (difficult due to Cape Horn)
As Brazil & Portugal seperated peacefully it might keep the pacific possessions.

Nasei · Mar 30, 2011

Gonzaga said:
The problem is that even if the Portuguese manage somehow to send a small force from the South to the Incan lands - and even that I think that is unlikely - soon or later the Spanish would be doing the same from the North, and the Portuguese would be "remembered" that they were exploring the wrong side of the Tordesillas Treaty.

True, it is a the low probability event.
But if Aleixo manages to meet the king with a big enough pile of silver its chances go up very fast.
Also the Tordesillas treaty had a little article that stated that if any state manages to conquer any land before it's surveyed it belongs to the part that owns it; this article was included because of the Canaries Islands and later used by the Spanish to keep the Filipinas.

Gonzaga said:
Do you have the sources for this, because the story I knew was a bit different:

I found it on an article about fortifications in Brazil, the author cites some sources.
I don't know if they include the part of the article that covers Alto Peru.

- "De Loreto à Tabatinga - D'une Frontiére l'Autre: Antagonisme Sur l'Amazone au XIX Siécle et Aprés", Jean-Pierre Chaumeil, L'Homme, Vol.32, n.º 122-124, Abril-Dez. 1992.
- "Fortificações Portuguesas no Brasil", Arnaldo Manuel Ferreira, Elo/Círculo das Letras, Lisboa, 2004
- "Homens Invisíveis", Leonencio Nossa, Editora Record, Rio de Janeiro, 2007

Gonzaga said:
It wasn't all the rulers of Alto Peru. It was the governor of the Province of Chiquitos who sent the message asking for Brazilian military support and a probable annexation to the Empire in 1825, after our independence. He sent it to the provisory governor of Mato Grosso (because the one nominated by Pedro I was still going there or hadn't being defined yet, I can't remeber exactly now). But this governor thought it would be a good idea to promote himself as a "man of action", and sent a small force to Chiquitos without asking orders from Rio - he only sent a letter to Pedro I informing the Emperor about the situation and his "quick response".

Ah!
The article stated that some of the Alto Peru rulers asked for military intervention, but didn't explained which ones.

Gonzaga said:
The problem is that Pedro I and the Brazilian Parliament didn't want to upset their neighbouring countries. They already had too much trouble being accepted as the only monarchy in South America, and invade Alto Peru to impose a monarch - and a Lusitanian one - surely wouldn't improve their position. The things got more complicated because Simon Bolivar got the news about the Brazilian invasion, and he - or Sucre, I'm at work now and can't check the details - threatened to invade Brazil if the Brazilian forces didn't retreat from Chiquitos. And to make things worse, due to the serious problems of communication between Mato Grosso and Rio de Janeiro, the Emperor received Bolivar's letter with the threat before the letter of the governor informing the invasion had arrived to the Court.

Pedro I then immeadiatly order the retreat (although the troops had already came back before his letter had arrived) and sent the new governor to replace the provisory one.

Also, we need to remember that Brazil had no condition to fight in Alto Peru. At that same (1825/1828) we failed at keeping Uruguay, a place that we were helding since 1816, where there was a large Portuguese speaking minority, where we had a huge number of troops stationed, and with far easier communication with Brazil than Alto Peru. Also, we lost it in a war with Argentina, a country that had less population than Peru and Alto Peru and that we would actually threat with naval blockades (that would be impossible in landlocked Chiquitos). So, not good perspectives here.

True, pity it looked a good way to get a Pacific coast to Brazil.

miguelrj · Jul 13, 2011

Let's take the Ecuadorian-Peruvian border dispute. The areas in dispute - if given to Brazil - would almost form a corridor all the way to the Pacific!
So WI during any of the Ecuadorian-Peruvian border wars Brazil steps in and offers to buy most of the area in contention plus a really narrow undisputed Ecuadorian and/or Peruvian territory strip to access Tumbes?

Both Ecuador and Peru could finally get themselves rid of border headaches saving face at the same time. The area is mostly Amazon forest so the local hispanophone population is small enough to be easily manageable. Of course it'd be hard to get Brazil to actually come up with the money to reasonably satisfy both countries. (Could a Pacific-transamazonian highway/railway eventually pay off this enormous investment?)
Also, I can't tell how much would these Hispanic countries frown upon seeing Brazil reaching a Pacific port...