WI Cathars are in the low countries not on Occitania

[kasumigenx]

What if Cathars are in the low countries not on Occitania, what will happen to the dutch.

[LSCatilina]

1) There are a link between cathars and bogomils, that didn't exist in Low Countries at this era. An alternate christianity sect here would be different both theologicaly and institutionally.

2)The catharism was quite supported by nobilty and urban bourgeoisie, not really by the people (only between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total population in the pyrenean zone, the heaviliest cathar region). You need to have an alliance between upper nobility and urban bourgeoisie (that's called patricianism), and critically in double cities (like Tolosa, with a political center in the county "city" and an economical center). It aslo need a real political freedom for cities with important nobilty.

3)It needs to be in a zone who avoid centralized power and rather nominally vassal from an important kingdom

4)Finally you need to have a mportant church lands, power associated with undogmatic abuses from local clergy.

5)A relative tolerent medieval society is needed.


I d'ont think that Low Countries would match all this without an earlier POD

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

1) There are a link between cathars and bogomils, that didn't exist in Low Countries at this era. An alternate christianity sect here would be different both theologicaly and institutionally.

2)The catharism was quite supported by nobilty and urban bourgeoisie, not really by the people (only between 1/3 and 1/2 of the total population in the pyrenean zone, the heaviliest cathar region). You need to have an alliance between upper nobility and urban bourgeoisie (that's called patricianism), and critically in double cities (like Tolosa, with a political center in the county "city" and an economical center). It aslo need a real political freedom for cities with important nobilty.

3)It needs to be in a zone who avoid centralized power and rather nominally vassal from an important kingdom

4)Finally you need to have a mportant church lands, power associated with undogmatic abuses from local clergy.

5)A relative tolerent medieval society is needed.


I d'ont think that Low Countries would match all this without an earlier POD

The POD is anytime between 9th to 13th century actually..

What if there is a heretic movement in the low countries at that time?, how will france react?

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

The POD is anytime between 9th to 13th century actually..

What if there is a heretic movement in the low countries at that time?, how will france react?

In fact, if I remember well, there are a more or less heretic movment in Low Countries and Alsace in the XIII century. So, i suppose if it's not too important or radical, things would continue like OTL

If not, France could react differently, according to the flemish nobilty decision
1)Nobles became heretics, Philippe II and Louis XII use that as a pretext in the war between France and HRE/Flemish nobles/England., the Honestaufen could even be less enjoyable to ally themselves to flemish.

2)Nobles fight the heresy while fighting France. So Philippe II could ally to the heretics. His son and his grandson would fight the heresy, as OTL for Languedoc once the situation stabilized against the count, the Plantagenet and the Honestaufen in order to stop an heresy movment who have to be linked with urban commune movment.

In both way, the heresy could hardly survive.

[Boto von Ageduch]

Afaik the contact to Bogomils is not proven (though plausible). Let's consider it that way: The most basic ideas, return to "pure" Christianity and a dualistic world view are not that original that they couldn't be developped independently. So I think it makes sense to ask What if a dualistic sect like the Cathars would have appeared in the Low Countries, and for the sake of simplicity assume that they are very much like the Cahtars.

Sure, the "Gnostoid" differentiation between the evil creator and the good redeemer seems less obvious. But we don't even know how exactly the Cathars adopted it.


I think one problem with the Low Countries that they are much more a) urbanized and b) politically segmented than Languedoc.

So you would see much lower rates of followers. Probably so low that it never causes a political conflict as the Cathars.


But you could think of a puristic, dualistic sect which is more narrowly attractive for citizens? This would, however, create a sharp conflict much earlier.

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Boto von Ageduch

b) politically segmented than Languedoc.

Interesting proposition, but for that, i beg to differ.



And it doesn't show the relative free cities, the not-so-important nobles.

[Boto von Ageduch]

Interesting map. "Al debut" - is that Catalan?

Taking into account that Raimond is himself a vassal to the King of France, this supports my point, as this makes all dark and light green areas one state (in approximation of the first degree). The Low Countries consisted of several such.

In particular, they also contained quite some significant clerical possessions, like the bishoprics of Utrecht and Lüttich. Btw, there is no clear definition or border of "Low Countries" at this time, so it makes sense to consider also the neighboring areas, i.e. around Cologne and Westphalia. And remember that Cologne is the biggest city in Germany at this time ...

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by Boto von Ageduch

Interesting map. "Al debut" - is that Catalan?

Taking into account that Raimond is himself a vassal to the King of France, this supports my point, as this makes all dark and light green areas one state (in approximation of the first degree). The Low Countries consisted of several such.

It's Occitan.

And prior the middle of XII, all the region was de facto independent of France or Aragon.
It's only when the Monfort sold their rights to the Lengadoc to the Capets that France had a real power here.

[Boto von Ageduch]

Originally Posted by LSCatilina

And prior the middle of XII, all the region was de facto independent of France or Aragon.

Sure. And certainly that situation was more pronounced than in most parts of the HRE. But it would be wrong to assume too much power of the Emperors over their North-Western vassals.

[kasumigenx]

Originally Posted by Boto von Ageduch

Interesting map. "Al debut" - is that Catalan?

Taking into account that Raimond is himself a vassal to the King of France, this supports my point, as this makes all dark and light green areas one state (in approximation of the first degree). The Low Countries consisted of several such.

In particular, they also contained quite some significant clerical possessions, like the bishoprics of Utrecht and Lüttich. Btw, there is no clear definition or border of "Low Countries" at this time, so it makes sense to consider also the neighboring areas, i.e. around Cologne and Westphalia. And remember that Cologne is the biggest city in Germany at this time ...

I actually use the Catalan of the google translate to translate Occitan texts in blogs.

Could after the Low Countries Crusade, the Low Countries become a part of France?

[LSCatilina]

Originally Posted by kasumigenx

Could after the Low Countries Crusade, the Low Countries become a part of France?

Only the parts that are ever in nominal french suzerainty, i would say. If by France, you mean the royal domain. But, indeed, an post-crusade French Flanders is interesting, and may butterfly many things in the Thousand Years War.