The perfect 'small' air force

Well pick on the Irish republic for this one since it could have a better air arm than the one it's had and still nearly has. I thought a good POD if it's not ASB would be Ireland entering the 2nd world war on the allied side sometime in late 1942, perhaps American pressure and promises of reward sway them to allow the USNavy use of it's ports and airfields (build new ones) to accomodate Liberators, Catalinas etc in the battle of the Atlantic.
So in 1943 the Irish are supplied with some US aircraft types to form a more capable air arm. Probably a squadron of patrol bombers and some fighters for air defence. Fast forward to the end of hostilities and you have a quite healthy little Irish military and naval capability that they decide to keep. The army has experience of fighting in Europe, the navy has operated a handful of corvettes in the U-Boat war and the air force has a cadre with combat experience and a reasonable ammount of equipment that it can call an air arm.
Maybe comprising a training wing with Harvards etc, a fighter wing with Mustangs, a naval wing with Catalinas, a reconnaissance squadron, a bombing squadron with something like the B25, some C47s. Basically a fair bit of US surplus, but good enough to last 10 years or so.
Moving on Ireland joins NATO in the 1950's and gets Sabres, T33s and so on, reequiping roughly in line with other NATO countries but remaining a small professional force similar in size to unaligned countries of Europe.
Sound feasible?
 
I think as a minimum to get this "off the ground" ( no more puns I promise! :D ) then De Valera and Fianna Fail have to be out of the picture. Maybe if Michael Collins survives and becomes the dominant political figure then Ireland just might join in WW2 after the U.S. gets involved, it would have been politically impossible to have declared war before this as it would have been seen as a "British War."

Definitely if the Easter Rising hadn't happened and a compromise had been struck excluding NI from home rule and Ireland began down the Canada/Australia road then it would have declared war in September 1939 and the Royal Irish Air Force would have been an offshoot of the RAF with Spitfires, Sunderlands etc.

As to what happens post war I suspect Collins' Ireland may well have resumed neutrality and if the air force continued I could see it being like Portugal' in the 50's and 60's equipped with G91's. If Ireland had joined NATO then as you say it would have developed like Holland's or Belgium's going from F86 to F104 and would now have F16 or perhaps Saab Gripen.
 

Riain

Banned
Maybe Ireland could get on board with other neutrals or Scandinavian countries, maybe buy Drakens and then F16s and finally Gripens.
 
There are low cost options, the Nigerian Air Force uses the Vans RV-6A as an advanced trainer. If you feel you must have jets, there must be options for an airplane with lower operating cost than the F-16.
 
The BAe Hawk comes to mind, and before it the F-5. Both could serve in a dual trainer/fighter role, too, which is nice.
Hell, the entire category of trainer/light attack - Alpha Jet, L-39, Hawk, etc. - would be a nice fit if Ireland felt it needed jets. The OTL Irish Air Corps used to operate Fouga Magisters in this role, but retired them in 1998.

The Irish probably could use (and likely could have used) more patrol aircraft, actually.
 
Ireland would have Fighters for Air Defense, and would have maritime patrol aircraft. I don't think a separate bomber unit would survive long after WWII. For present day it would be F-16, F-18 or SAAB Gripen Fighters that can be used as Fighter Bombers easily, and P3 Orions to be replaced with P8 Poseidons. All aircraft might be built as a join venture with Ireland providing some parts for each. I don't see the OTL Irish buying from the UK if they joined the war after the US.
 
Yip, pretty much the way I was thinking too. The B25 squadron would be disbanded by the 1950s. I wasn't thinking of Ireland having cutting edge jets beyond the F86. Yugoslavia with it's MiG 21s or Austria with it's late Drakens are good examples. There was some sort of treaty I think that restricted Ireland to buying only British aircraft. They flew Gladiators, hurricanes and early spitfires. This would change if they joined the allies mid war and they would get American lend lease if they wanted it. I think it might have looked something like this as they entered service.

1943:
Fighter: Spitfire V or Warhawk
Patrol: Catalina
Coastal patrol: Swordfish

1944:
Fighter: Spitfire IX or P47
Bomber: B25
Coastal patrol: Grumman Avenger
Transport: C47

1945 and post war
Fighter: Mustang (2 squadrons)
Advanced trainer: Harvard.

1950s:
Front line jets are 2 squadrons plus 1 recon flight.
Patrol: Lockheed Neptune
Trainer: T33
Fighter: F86F/K
Attack: F84F
Recon: RF84F
GP helo: S55

1960s:
GP Helo: S58 or UH1
Attack/Recon: A4 Skyhawk or Fiat G91 or Hunter

1970/80s:
Fighter: F5E/RF5E/F5F
Helo: Lynx, Gazelle and Super Puma
Patrol: Orion
Transport: Transall 160
Trainer: Alpha jet or Hawk

1990s/21st century:
Replacements needed for 1970s and 80s equipment or gradually scrap the air arm.
 
I would suspect that given the IOTL, much of Irelands offensive air capability consisted of arouned 8 dated Fouga Magister's from the 60's onwards that they would buy only one type of fighter/trainer. They may be willing to buy something like Sabres in the later 50's and early 60's (probably Canadair ones) but by the 1970'1980's, rising costs and the gradual decline in European militaries in that timeframe would mean that they would replace them with just a single type of fighter/trainer. My gues, given that Ireland has traditionally bought the bulk of it's military kit from Europe then it would either be a BAE Hawk or DD Alphajet, possibly serving until today but a replacement very much in doubt.

Russell
 

NothingNow

Banned
There are low cost options, the Nigerian Air Force uses the Vans RV-6A as an advanced trainer. If you feel you must have jets, there must be options for an airplane with lower operating cost than the F-16.
Gripens. You don't even need a real runway. Just a passable highway.
 
Hmm, since I first wrote this I've been reading a lot about Irish neutrality and I have to say that I respect it more than I did earlier. Not that I saw it as anti British sour grapes or pro axis in anyway, just thought that given the morality of our cause and the obvious evil of the enemy they should have been onboard at some point.
In fact from what I've gleaned, they were very much on our side and of more value as a neutral country than otherwise. It seems the naval basing argument wasn't so important as I'd imagined either. Still the facts speak for themselves and show that Ireland was in fact as much pro allied as America was during it's neutrality phase.
70,000 Irish volunteers in UK armed forces, roughly 3 quarters of them catholic (plus around 50.000 more in Ulster)
Allied airmen almost invariably allowed to 'escape' into Ulster (unless they insisted on being interred), German airmen always interred and German gov't made to pay for their keep.
Protest sent to German govt on the invasion of Holland and Belgium
5,000 IRA sympathisers interred without trial for duration(in the free state)
Irish military intelligence sharing information with UK MI5
Allied maritime patrol aircraft allowed to overfly Irish airspace enroute to Atlantic patrols.
accusations of Irish collusion with the Germans have been completely disproven and malicious reports of German U-boats using Irish ports as refueling bases also shown to be nonsense. De Valera wasn't Franco.

I still like the idea of a proper air force though.
 
Considering the size of Ireland's economy and population, a comparison could be made with the airforces of countries such as Portugal and Denmark (bit of a stretch) or New Zealand/Singapore.

Ireland is just about in the same strategic position as New-Zealand in several area's and it could chose to ditch it's fast jet capability and go for helicopters and MPA's instead as those could relatively be much more usefull, even if there's a NATO membership.

Keeping a squadron or so of P-3C's upgraded would make for a very nice capability for such a small country and those would be very popular as expeditionary forces.
 
I still like the idea of a proper air force though.

And frankly, neutrality doesn't preclude it, as the Swiss showed.

One very interesting path may be that the Americans pre-1942 license the designs of the P-40 and PBY to the Irish. There wasn't an aircraft industry in Eire to speak of, but it does get them around buying actual aircraft. Over the course of the war, the Irish domestically produce a fair number of aircraft with which to "enforce their neutrality". After the war they continue flying the P-40s and PBYs until they eventually license production of late-model F-86s and Neptunes in the 1950s.

By that point, the Irish aircraft industry is sufficiently large that they start producing civilian aircraft of their own design. If they do that right, they can then export those aircraft for a profit, something that would really stand out in generally crappy post-war Ireland. And so Ireland continues building license-built patrol and interceptors through the Cold War, while at the same time carving out a niche in the civilian market and growing the economy substantially faster than OTL...
 

Pangur

Donor
Ireland and a US treaty

One of the most misunderstood parts of Irish history is the issue of neutrality- De Valersaw it as a tactic; no more no less. After the WW2 the Irish approached the US for a one on one treaty which was knocked back by the US. This TL could just as easy start from that point (mid 50`s) It might go like this - US get ports and air bases and they provide a `starter pack' airforce maybe like this


  • 40 F86D Sabres
  • 12 P2 Neptunes
  • 24 B-47 Helicopters
  • 12 0-1 Bird Dogs
 

Cook

Banned
So in 1943 the Irish are supplied with some US aircraft types to form a more capable air arm. Probably a squadron of patrol bombers and some fighters for air defence. Fast forward to the end of hostilities and you have a quite healthy little Irish military and naval capability that they decide to keep.


Under the terms of Lend/Lease, anything that wasn’t returned or destroyed had to be paid for, would the Irish Free State have had the money for such extravagance, especially given that in the immediate post war period, when they’d have to decide to buy these aircraft, there was no perceived threat to Ireland’s security?
 
The most useful contribution of an Irish air force to WWII would have been a Search And Rescue service using flying boats (lots of sheltered bays and sea lochs to fly from). This could have been funded by the US and used Catalinas. Up to December 1941 a lot of the pilots could have been USN and USAAC acting as instructors.
 
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