The Afrika Korps takes Palestine

[Chris S]

Originally Posted by jmc247

Believe him or not the man has a terminal illness and isn't long for this Earth. If there is a heaven or hell he will be judged for his actions not by you or I.

Yup, yup. I'm not judging him any more than you (unless you've believed every word he said and don't wonder about what he doesn't want to talk about). I've simply pointed out that I wouldn't take his word at face value (whether or not he has a terminal illness is irrelevant to the veracity of his claims) mainly because that kind of story has been repeated far too many times, by far too many other veterans from the Wehrmacht for all of them to be telling the truth.

Look, I had a relative who fought in WWII, Korea and Suez. He was very friendly and a very good artist (and he's already passed now, God rest his soul). However just because he fought in those 3 conflicts I don't necessarily believe everything he ever said about them (which really wasn't much since he hated talking about and usually much preferred to discuss paintings or birds or better yet paintings of birds ). Was he tough? I dunno, I wouldn't have said so because of the campaigns he fought and he was rather mild mannered when I knew him. Was he always truthful? Oh hell no. I can well recall him claiming not to have been smoking when his daughter would ask him on the suspicion that he was (and he had). Most of us also suspect he's had at least one illegitimate child given his adventures (and there are others on this board who had relatives whom they know for sure had children they didn't know about until much later). But we loved him for who he was, faults and all and weren't about to make excuses for him. He did what he did (whatever it was in war and peace) and if I was asked I would never vouch for his actions in those instances where I wasn't there or where there wasn't undeniable proof. Simply because I wouldn't have known and to even hint at vouching for him would just be folly considering I couldn't really do so and because I might well be setting myself up for some red-faced moments should anything ever come out which would prove that he wasn't a saint.

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

Originally Posted by Chris S

"and after the battle, the Red Army continued to push the Germans back until they took Berlin in a gigantic battle in 1945. Thousands of women and girls were then raped by the victorious Red Army." If that's whitewashing I would hate to see the Red Army blackwashed.).

Ahem... what did the German army do for the prior four years? (And I am only talking about to the Gentile Slavs, not even the Jews of Eastern Europe.)

[Cook]

Just to chime in, there are a lot of well documented cases of war crimes and atrocities by the Wehrmacht in Italy under Kesselring.

Ironically, in Italy it was ‘Smiling Albert’ that was advocating harsher measures while Wolf, the SS security commander for Italy, was ordering restraint.

[TyranicusMaximus]

I'd just like to chime in quickly.

There were how many soldiers in the Wehrmacht?

It's certainly more than likely that a German soldier wouldn't have seen German atrocities. Doesn't excuse the organization as a whole, certainly not. Just statistical likelihood.

At the very least, and that's discounting the documented atrocities carried out by Wehrmacht units, the infrastructure that was used in the Holocaust and the atrocities in the Soviet Union, was run by the Wehrmacht, and German troops did round up civilians under orders from the Gestapo and other groups.

[Chris S]

Originally Posted by Cook

Just to chime in, there are a lot of well documented cases of war crimes and atrocities by the Wehrmacht in Italy under Kesselring.

Ironically, in Italy it was ‘Smiling Albert’ that was advocating harsher measures while Wolf, the SS security commander for Italy, was ordering restraint.

Well a lot of things happened and a lot of people weren't involved. The Werhmacht wasn't filled entirely with good guys (nor was it filled entirely with bad guys) and the SS wasn't filled entirely with bad guys (but it certainly wasn't filled with good guys who you would want to have a beer with and feel safe with walking along dark alleys). Same applies to just about every other armed group involved in the war.

And stranger things have happened. Even now we've apparently been visited by space tourists taking pictures of Jerusalem.

[Chris S]

Originally Posted by TyranicusMaximus

I'd just like to chime in quickly.

There were how many soldiers in the Wehrmacht?

It's certainly more than likely that a German soldier wouldn't have seen German atrocities. Doesn't excuse the organization as a whole, certainly not. Just statistical likelihood.

At the very least, and that's discounting the documented atrocities carried out by Wehrmacht units, the infrastructure that was used in the Holocaust and the atrocities in the Soviet Union, was run by the Wehrmacht, and German troops did round up civilians under orders from the Gestapo and other groups.

It certainly is, but really how many times have you heard German soldiers in documentaries saying they didn't partake in or see any atrocities? How statistically likely is it that so many would actually not have seen or done anything and also made it through the war and just happened to have been interviewed for documentaries or books or by folks such as jmc247? Either all the bad ones were killed or got kicked out into the Void or some of them are lying. As I said to jmc247, too many are saying that they were angels for it to be true and that as a result I now would not believe any of them at face value without further proof even if they may actually be telling the truth (which is quite possible in the case of the soldier jmc247 knows). In the case of Rommel for instance there seems to be a lot of supporting evidence as outlined by jmc247 - it's far too difficult to believe that Rommel was lying and managed to get everyone else he knew in on the act as opposed to the Rommel telling the truth. In other cases, without some other persons memoirs confirming their claims or without some official documents supporting their claims (like maybe that they refused to carry out a particular order) it's just now impossible to tell if the person is telling the truth or just hiding the truth because either they are ashamed or they know that people would look down on them if the told it (regardless of if they think they were right or wrong).

[Tobit]

Originally Posted by Chris S

It certainly is, but really how many times have you heard German soldiers in documentaries saying they didn't partake in or see any atrocities? How statistically likely is it that so many would actually not have seen or done anything and also made it through the war and just happened to have been interviewed for documentaries or books or by folks such as jmc247?

The statistical break down for Wermacht survivors is probably the same as the statistic of Russian soldiers who claim that they did not commit any rape. I read a book called Ivan's War the author interviewed many Russians and the vast majority of them claim they did not participate or even see any of the rape take place.

[jmc247]

Originally Posted by miketr

It started in Poland when they didn't punish war crimes. Hitlers order for Russia made it worse and the result was peoples war with rivers and rivers of blood.

As to Rommel he did try to stay with in the rules and since N Africa was in effect his private little war he was able to do so there. It also helped there weren't many civilians around either.

Hitler would play a game of saying one thing to the German Army officers and generals and then another to the SS/Waffen SS officers and generals.

At the start of the war in Poland he gave your usual we must win and we will win speech to the leaders of the German Army then he gave a seperate speech to the SS officers.



That said over time the task of Hitler's mass killings became too big for only the Waffen SS and the SS and they started getting the other branches of the German armed forces involved.

German officers 'knew of Holocaust'

During the Second World War, British intelligence secretly bugged the cells occupied by some of the most senior German army, navy and air force commanders who had been captured by the Allies.

The transcripts have only recently been made available to researchers and show that:

Senior Luftwaffe officers mused together at the end of 1943 that millions of Jews had already been killed.

General Dietrich von Choltitz, the German commander who defied Hitler's orders by not allowing Paris to be destroyed, admitted that he had been involved in killing Jews;

Field Marshal Erwin Rommel had been fully briefed about the 1944 attempt to kill the Nazi leader, and refused to betray the plotters.

The transcripts also point to closer links between Rommel and the plotters who attempted to kill Hitler in 1944. It was previously known that the conspirators asked Rommel whether he would take over if Hitler were no longer alive to run the Nazi state, but never told him of their plans to bomb the Führer.

However, a conversation involving General Heinrich Eberbach, who worked closely with Rommel in 1944, suggests Rommel had been fully told about the plans and kept them to himself.

http://news.scotsman.com/world/Germa...ust.2685645.jp

[Chris S]

Originally Posted by Tobit

The statistical break down for Wermacht survivors is probably the same as the statistic of Russian soldiers who claim that they did not commit any rape. I read a book called Ivan's War the author interviewed many Russians and the vast majority of them claim they did not participate or even see any of the rape take place.

Yeah, but who would really believe those claims? After all some soldiers from all the armies involved in WWII (German, Soviet, American, British, Japanese, etc) were involved in rape, theft and murder. So the idea that so many of these soldiers in one of the most brutal theatres of the war were the shining examples of "see no evil" and/or didn't commit some of these acts themselves stretches credulity because someone must have done it. I can recall a documentary (will have to find the name again....I think it might have been War of the Century but I have my great doubts about that...that might just be the only name popping into my head at the mo..) where it basically established through interviews with Wehrmacht, Red Army, partisan and NKVD ex-members that civilians basically lived wretchedly as a result of all of them. Basically civilians sounded like they had to be wary of anybody toting a gun.

[jmc247]

Originally Posted by Chris S

Yeah, but who would really believe those claims? After all some soldiers from all the armies involved in WWII (German, Soviet, American, British, Japanese, etc) were involved in rape, theft and murder. So the idea that so many of these soldiers in one of the most brutal theatres of the war were the shining examples of "see no evil" and/or didn't commit some of these acts themselves stretches credulity because someone must have done it. I can recall a documentary (will have to find the name again....I think it might have been War of the Century but I have my great doubts about that...that might just be the only name popping into my head at the mo..) where it basically established through interviews with Wehrmacht, Red Army, partisan and NKVD ex-members that civilians basically lived wretchedly as a result of all of them. Basically civilians sounded like they had to be wary of anybody toting a gun.

Ever watch that episode of Hogan's Heroes where he gets Klink to sign up to fight on the Russian front? Maybe, Hogan was right all along that all the horror stories coming out Eastern Europe were concocted by the German and Russian officers so they could hang out and party and it would keep the other officers from wanting to serve there. Or not.

[ArmchairPhilosopher]

To strictly address the OP and nothing less/more: the German soldiers get a lot more hummus and shawarma in their diets!

[Chris S]

Originally Posted by jmc247

Ever watch that episode of Hogan's Heroes where he gets Klink to sign up to fight on the Russian front? Maybe, Hogan was right all along that all the horror stories coming out Eastern Europe were concocted by the German and Russian officers so they could hang out and party and it would keep the other officers from wanting to serve there. Or not.

Hmm....well between the German beer, Russian vodka, the ice-cream and various dishes involving rabbits, deer, pork, beef and cabbage.....and with the women....hmm...that might just be an angle a researcher should explore.

[ranoncles]

Originally Posted by Tobit

Wasn't Rommel in command of the bodyguard division of Hitler from 1936-1940. It is pretty clear the two knew each other very well. I don't think Rommel could possibly disagree with Hitler's genocide.

Hmm, this needs a bit of clarification methinks....

Hitler was a hugely popular politician in the 1930s. Not many people knew about his ultimate goals. And if you think that is fiction, how many people know the party program of their own political choice during an election today?

The army also loved Hitler because he restored their "tarnished" reputation and gave Germany its major power status back. And gave them lots of shiny new toys.

As for Rommel, he wasn't destined for high command as he wasn't a trained general staff officer or all that popular within the army bureacracy. He did have a reputation as an excellent front line battalion commander and he wrote a book on infantry tactics which Hitler liked. So Hitler appointed Rommel commander of the Fuhrerbegleit battalion (a composite army escort unit) and gave him a minor role in the Hitlerjugend as a trainer. This obviously gave Rommel's career a big boost and allowed him to request command of a panzer division in early 1940. The command of the escort unit was good for Rommel's career and it was a poke in the eye of the "generals" by Hitler who disliked the traditional high command and preferred self-made men of middle-class backgrounds.

However, no reputable scholar has ever suggested that Rommel was a Nazi and thus closely linked to Hitler. Just that he was very ambitious and knew how to grasp any opportunity to advance himself.

[jmc247]

Originally Posted by ranoncles

However, no reputable scholar has ever suggested that Rommel was a Nazi and thus closely linked to Hitler. Just that he was very ambitious and knew how to grasp any opportunity to advance himself.

I agree with your term 'reputable scholar', but its important to point out since the Cold War a great many so called scholors in Germany have been trying to throw Rommel under the historical bus so to speak and turn the image of him into one of a genocidal Nazi dirt bag. They put up with Germans liking him during the Cold War because they wanted a military figure for German soldiers to emulate should the Soviet's decide to take West Germany. There is a reason why they named a base and a warship after him.

But, as I was saying with the end of the Cold War these scholars have beeing trying to toss under the bus the few war heroes Germans were allowed to have during the Cold War.

They have an exibit in Stuttgard arguing Rommel was a Nazi and loved Adolf Hitler to the very end.

Myth of 'humane' Nazi Erwin Rommel debunked

A new exhibition in Stuttgart calls into question the true nature of the man known as the "Desert Fox". "The Rommel Myth" strips away the legends that surround the man who faced off against Britain's Desert Rats in North Africa and who committed suicide after being implicated in a plot to kill Adolf Hitler, the Daily Mail reports.

A spokesman for the History House, the foundation which is staging the exhibition, said: "Rommel was a fabrication of Nazi propaganda."

He cited a diary entry by Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels in 1941 that said: "I would strongly advise that now, as soon as the battle for North Africa has been decided, Rommel be elevated to a kind of popular hero."

Germans have traditionally been taught that Rommel was a good man, surrounded by evil. But Gestapo documents in the exhibition paint a different picture.

They reveal that even as he was being led away by secret policeman he spoke of his devotion to Hitler. "I loved the Fuhrer and I love him still. I am innocent of any involvement in the assassination attempt,' he said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/3836479/Myth-of-humane-Nazi-Erwin-Rommel-debunked.html

Rommel was a creation of Nazi propaganda? I guess I must have imagined hearing a recording in 1942 of Churchill calling Rommel a “skillful opponent” and “a great general".

As for Rommel supposedly professing his undying love for "The Fuhrer" as he was being dragged away by the Gestapo given the fact these thugs had the power to torture him to death and kill his entire family, blow up his house and have it end up on the radio the next day as an Allied air strike killed Rommel and his family I probably would have said the same thing in his shoes.

I suspect his quote to his family and a number of different army officers a few weeks earlier was a more accurate representation of his views on Adolf at the time. "after the 20th July plot Rommel commented to his family and various officers that 'Stauffenberg had bungled it and a front-line soldier would have finished Hitler off'" (The Rommel Papers Page 486).