Napoleon dies in 1802

I sure hope this has not been brought up already.

What if Napoleon Bonaparte dies in the summer of 1802, after the signing of the Treaty of Amiens but before either he or Britain screw things up by refusing to implement certain articles of said treaty?

One result I can think of right now is no War of 1812, alias US vs. UK, round 2. So perhaps the prediction of author Pierre Berton that without the transformative experience of the war to forge a Canadian national identity, British North America might eventually have joined the United States peacefully. But whatever the long-term effects, there'd likely not be a War of 1812.

Also, no Louisiana Purchase, at least not how and when it went down in OTL. It'd depend on what sort of government succeeds the First Consul; if a new leader comes to power who is anywhere near as dynamic and strong-willed as Nap was the US might still get the territory - perhaps Eugene de Beauharnais could take over, as the closest thing Nap had to a son. But if a period of chaos ensues, there could be a royalist coup, and if Louis XVIII is restored in 1802 instead of 1814, Louisiana might have to be conquered by the US in an alt-War of 1812, this time against France, in which the UK might remain aloof.

Germany would not have been handed the savage beating it got in the campaigns of 1806 and 1807 and also would not have been subjected to a Napoleonic occupation, so German nationalism and the drive to unify would remain dormant probably. Austria also emerges relatively unscathed, having lost in prestige relative to 1792, but not having suffered the humblings of 1805 or '09. Spain is never invaded, which translates to a longer reign for Carlos IV, and the American colonies might stay Spanish without the anarchy of the Peninsular War. Portugal also emerges stronger. Italy probably goes back to how things were pre-1789, pretty much.

The UK is not going to lose out by any means from a Napoleonic death in '02, but the "victory" over the French republicans, if indeed a victory is in the offing, would not be at the hands of the British, but very possibly at the hands of the French themselves. So Britain's dominant position in the 19th century is compromised, though the ultimate territorial extent of the British Empire is not necessarily decreased.

France would have a larger population in 1802, not having suffered 13 additional years of warfare; even if Eugene takes over and secures his position as head of state, he was not subject to his stepfather's megalomaniacal pipedreams of strangling England or beating Russia into submission so the peace still might hold in that case. A more populous France and one still undefeated means a France that is more prominent in the 19th century, both in Europe and in the world.

The French Navy is undestroyed in 1802, so in later years Britain will have to share the waves unless there is another Franco-British war in which the UK sinks France's navy.

Anyway, that is all I have for now. Any thoughts?
 
Does he have Eugene at this point? Also you might see a better prepared United States go after Canada, since it has neither the land area of the Loiusanna purchase, or inhibiations to push them to the west. Also are his brothers and sisters in place at this point? If they prove to be intelligent they might acualtly be able to hold their own regimes.
 
Othniel said:
Does he have Eugene at this point? Also you might see a better prepared United States go after Canada, since it has neither the land area of the Loiusanna purchase, or inhibiations to push them to the west. Also are his brothers and sisters in place at this point? If they prove to be intelligent they might acualtly be able to hold their own regimes.

Eugene who?
 
Eugene de Beauharnais was the only son of the Empress Josephine; he was born in 1781 and was a trusted lietenant of his adoptive father for the duration of Napoleon's career - he was mostly Viceroy of Italy. In 1802 I am not sure exactly what he was doing, and actually, now that I think of it, he was only 21, but still, he was definitely around and a close associate of the First Consul. In 1804 he was made Prince Imperial, so if Napoleon died two years earlier, I could see Eugene at least trying to step in for him.
 
With Nappy's resume I suppose they'd let his son some leverage, unless the other two consuls decide they can't count on him.
 

Faeelin

Banned
Othniel said:
Does he have Eugene at this point? Also you might see a better prepared United States go after Canada, since it has neither the land area of the Loiusanna purchase, or inhibiations to push them to the west. Also are his brothers and sisters in place at this point? If they prove to be intelligent they might acualtly be able to hold their own regimes.

Hmm. I think the US would still want Louisiana; it's valuable, after all, and it's the key to the west at this point. How will fighting for Canada let the US ship its goods down the Mississippi at will?

Eugene is too young at this point, and Napoleon lacks the benefit of Austerlitz and the coronation. I'm afraid that the Consulate is more likely to continue as it was. Not that's a bad thing, of course.
 
Jean Bernadotte didn't take the Swedish kingship yet, right? So, have him replace Napoleon. Also, other rulers may have sold Louisiana, if they had it to sell...
 

Faeelin

Banned
Wendell said:
Jean Bernadotte didn't take the Swedish kingship yet, right? So, have him replace Napoleon. Also, other rulers may have sold Louisiana, if they had it to sell...

And they probably would've sold it. Although, hmm, I think Talleyrand was opposed to the sale.

I could be wrong, and I'd have to check.
 
plantagenet said:
Italy probably goes back to how things were pre-1789, pretty much.
Hm .. Italy had the Cisalpine Republic which I think will stay in place.

plantagenet said:
The UK is not going to lose out by any means from a Napoleonic death in '02, but the "victory" over the French republicans, if indeed a victory is in the offing, would not be at the hands of the British, but very possibly at the hands of the French themselves. So Britain's dominant position in the 19th century is compromised, though the ultimate territorial extent of the British Empire is not necessarily decreased.
Well they won't have the Cape Colony for one thing, or Mauritius and StLucia

plantagenet said:
France would have a larger population in 1802, not having suffered 13 additional years of warfare; even if Eugene takes over and secures his position as head of state, he was not subject to his stepfather's megalomaniacal pipedreams of strangling England or beating Russia into submission so the peace still might hold in that case. A more populous France and one still undefeated means a France that is more prominent in the 19th century, both in Europe and in the world.
The long-term demographic decline of 19C France had to do with 19C French birthrates, not with mortality in the Napoleonic wars.

plantagenet said:
The French Navy is undestroyed in 1802, so in later years Britain will have to share the waves unless there is another Franco-British war in which the UK sinks France's navy.
There probably will be.
 
Faeelin said:
And they probably would've sold it. Although, hmm, I think Talleyrand was opposed to the sale.

I could be wrong, and I'd have to check.

Talleyrand had spent several years in exile in America between the Terror and the Consulate, doing land development. He knew the value Louisiana.

Talleyrand is probably the man who will decide who'll govern France going forward.
 
benedict XVII said:
Depends with whom France would be allied. RN was not exactly brilliant during AIW against combined French-Spanish navies.
True. They'd gotten complacent and suffered for it. They did however well enough in the French Revolutionary war against the combined French-Spanish navies.

France's problems are:
1) that it is a land-power and needs to maintain a sizable army in addition to a navy and it its the army which tends to get first call on available resources.

2) Britain is going through the Industrial Revolution and its financial resources in consequence are in the process of outstripping France's. It's been claimed that by 1815 Britain's economic weight was equal to the rest of Europe put together.

19C Britain was the Superpower of the day. France would have to concede Britannia's rule of the waves either peacefully or the hard way.
 
France is going to be much stronger economically with control of the rhineland and belgium. Will the republics in the Netherlands and Northern Italy survive? Prussia will be severly weakened without the rhineland. The old partition border will stay in Poland and Prussia will keep warsaw, how will this change things in Eastern Europe?
 

Faeelin

Banned
HunterX said:
France is going to be much stronger economically with control of the rhineland and belgium. Will the republics in the Netherlands and Northern Italy survive? Prussia will be severly weakened without the rhineland. The old partition border will stay in Poland and Prussia will keep warsaw, how will this change things in Eastern Europe?

I'd imagine the Republic in Italy would survive at least, and probably the one in the Netherlands; the Dutch didn't want the Stadholder back in 1815.

Hmm. I wonder what the population of the Polish parts of Prussia was, at this point. It seems to me that there'd be as many Poles as Prussians.
 
2nd triumvirat

If Napoleon dies in 1802, then the constitution of 22 frimaire, year VIII applies ( I'm supposing Napoleon dies before august 1802 or that the constitution of 14th and 16th thermidor, year X, is superceded - the one of 10 floreal, year X, is obviously obsolete by that time -; if not, the main difference is that the consuls are elected for life, instead of for 10 years, without election limit ).

That means a new consulat. With the first consul dead, my guess is that the two junior consuls have to stand for reelection also. I'm not sure if this was actually in the constitution ( I don't have the exact text of all the three constitutions which could apply in 1802 ) but I'm guessing that political pressures will force this, even if not mandated.

The reasons which lead to the formation and composition of the first consulat still mostly apply so a sucessful general has to be consul. OTOH, after a couple years with Bonaparte as first Consul, I don't think the french political establishment is going to accept a general as first Consul. So, after a few round of political wrangling ( but no coup this time ), I guess the consulat will be established as follows. Cambaceres is first Consul ( he provides a continuity with the first consulat and contact with the Seyes faction ); Massena is second consul ( there are other candidates, but he was the onvious choice after Napoleon in 1799, so I'm guessing he's still the one who comes on top in 1802 ) and third Consul is Talleyrand ( he won't marry Miss Grant in this TL ).

Politically, there won't be a lot of difference from OTL consulat inside France; however the foreign policy is quite different. None of the consuls has Napoleon's attachement to North Italy, so the Po is not annexed to france, instead being part of the Panonian Republic. Talleyrand's influance means that English break of the Amien treaty in keeping Malta is overlooked and the french presence in the dutch republic is reduced. Obviously, there is no Boulogne camp.

This means that hostility between Uk and Revolutionary France is lowered all the way to frosty, but England doest actively act against France. In turn this means that the foes of France need more time to coordinate and prepare for war ( the absence of british gold is keenly felt ), but they still prepare. In early 1805, the third coalition of Austria, Prussia and Russia declare war on France and her allies.

As soon as this is known, french armies totalling 600,000 men march eastward, under Massena, Davout and Soult. In two years they manage a serie of crushing victories against their foe ( the 'genius' of Napoleon was mainly in his generals and armies, which are still in service of France in this TL, and have a couple more year to refurbish, here ).

The peace is seen as harsh by France foes but will keep them down for a cuple decades at least. France doesn't gain any land but is recognised as 'protector of the german federation' and gets a huge indeminity. In addition, Austria losses quite a lot of lands to the french german and italian allies while Prussia and Russia looses all that is Poland.

For the next few decades, Peace rules over western europe under the french Aegis. Industrially, Uk and Greater France ( = OTL France + Geneva, Belgium, Maastricht and the left bank of the Rhine ) run a close race, with Uk always leading in length of railroad and France leading in cloth; steel production is about even. After a decade, feeling threatened by US vociferations, France transfers quite a few veterans to its Louisiana Territories, with the promise of homesteads for anyone who wants them....
 
Faeelin said:
And they probably would've sold it. Although, hmm, I think Talleyrand was opposed to the sale.

I could be wrong, and I'd have to check.
So, if Bernadotte becomes the ruler of France, who gets Sweden?
 
Well, Bernadotte did not become king of Sweden until 1810, after the Finnish war in which Sweden lost Finland. This war was at least in part due to Napoleon's deal with the Russian Tsar at Tilsit in 1807; he wanted Russia to force Sweden into the Continental System. But if Nap dies in '02 there is no Continental System and possibly no Finnish War. So maybe Gustav IV Adolf is able to keep his throne for longer and the native Swedish line continues.
 
With the different military situation of TTL, it is entirely possible there is no impressment controversy between the US and the UK; so no Orders in Council and no war scares. This means no War of 1812, no invasion of Canada, and the diplomatic rapprochement which I think existed between the two anglophone powers in the very early 1800s would continue. In OTL, Thomas Jefferson spoke of a potential need to "marry ourselves to the British fleet and nation" to keep France out of Louisiana. If Bernadotte or whoever keeps Louisiana and tries to build it up militarily and/or demographically, the US will move closer to Britain to oppose this aggression.

Even if it seems to Americans that France is a threat in Louisiana, however, and act on that perception, IMO the reality is that republican France would not have an easier time of populating an American colony as the Bourbons did. The French were notorious for not wanting to settle in America long term, and I can't think of a reason republicans would be any different from royal subjects. And even if there were such a reason, in the time between the acquisition of Louisiana and its likely seizure by the US, perhaps in the 1810s, I doubt if France could put enough people there to make a difference.

Also, properly developing Louisiana requires having a stable base in Haiti, still in rebellion, though Leclerc was valiantly warring against the rebels. One of the biggest problems was when Napoleon reintroduced slavery in the colonies in late spring, early summer 1802. This raised the stakes for the rebels, whose main leaders had made peace with the French. So if Napoleon dies before making that edict, the shaky peace in Haiti, I suppose, might hold, with Leclerc gradually reimposing order on the island. This would only disturb the Americans more, however, driving them closer to a British alliance.

If Napoleon's successor presses on with plans to suppress the rebellion in Haiti, which he'd pretty much have to, and then consolidate France's position in Louisiana, the US Navy might have something to say about that; perhaps we could even see a declaration of war against the French Republic. This seems a little weird, a republic declaring war against another republic, in this time period, but remember the quasi-war of 1798.
 
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