Greater Croatia

[Hrvatskiwi]

OK, this might be a bit of an overlap with post-1900, but what do you guys think would be the consequences of a Bosnia & Herzegovina which was not converted to Islam and subsequently united with Croatia? This includes scenarios where Croatia is still controlled by the Hapsburgs OR is independent.

[Arrix85]

About the conversion, don't know how to avoid it... maybe a stronger Hungary capable of withstand the Ottomans? A stronger Hungary would be less likely to be conquered by the Hapsburg...

A stronger Hungary would never risk to lose access to the sea, though. Magyarization would be much stronger than OTL's (after the 1867 reform of the Austrian empire).

[yourworstnightmare]

Have the Bosnian kingdom survive!!!

Oh, right, wouldn't help Croatia.

[Janprimus]

Originally Posted by Arrix85

About the conversion, don't know how to avoid it... maybe a stronger Hungary capable of withstand the Ottomans? A stronger Hungary would be less likely to be conquered by the Hapsburg...

A stronger Hungary would never risk to lose access to the sea, though. Magyarization would be much stronger than OTL's (after the 1867 reform of the Austrian empire).

The Habsburgs, Albert and Ladislaus, inherited Hungary, as did Ferdinand (by right of his wife), but Ferdinand was only accepted in a part of Hungary, another was conquered by the Ottomans and a third part had an own king for a while.

Maybe larger kingdom of Croatia could happen, if Croatia never gets in a personal union with Hungary (from 1102), but remains independent with a own king.

[Arrix85]

But a stronger Hungary, especially the nobles, wouldn't so easily accept foreign rule, to be handed over through inheritance. Anyway, to stay on topic: I know nothing about the early croatian kingdom (and the personal union with Hungary you mentioned), so don't know how that could that play out.

[wolf_brother]

Simply have the Illyrian movement be stronger. A united south slavic state, including Croatia, is born sometime between 1848 and ITTL's breakup of the Hapsburg Empire.

[Cambyses The Mad]

Originally Posted by Hrvatskiwi

OK, this might be a bit of an overlap with post-1900, but what do you guys think would be the consequences of a Bosnia & Herzegovina which was not converted to Islam and subsequently united with Croatia? This includes scenarios where Croatia is still controlled by the Hapsburgs OR is independent.

The Illyrian states were in a pretty difficult situation for a long time, hemmed in as they were by Austria on one side and the Ottomans on the other. I don't think Croatia and Bosnia would be strong enough to hold off the Ottomans by themselves. If Serbia was also involved in the union it'd have a much better chance, but then it would probably end up being Serb-dominated, which I doubt you want.

If union with the Serbs is unacceptable, a Bosnia/Croatian Union might be possible if it was closely allied with Austria. That would give the Illyrians the military strength they needed. The Austrians would probably benefit from having a stable buffer state between themselves and the Ottomans.

[Keb]

Actually, it might be pretty easy with a post-1900 PoD. Have the CPs win WWI, then let Austria-Hungary collapse. It's conceivable that Croatia might try to break away from Hungary. You'd need people in charge of both Germany and Austria that don't really believe in continuing the Habsburg state and do believe in Austria (and Bohemia) winding up as part of the German Empire.

In that case, you might see Croatia (and by this I mean both the Hungarian and Austrian parts) walk away with Bosnia, Cattaro and a few other bits with Vienna's blessing (since it's going to remain a German client anyway). The status of Istria (and, by extension, the rest of Küstenland) is a bit questionable, as it might remain Austrian/German ... or it might wind up in Croatian hands. It might be given to the Croats in order to drive a further wedge between Croatia and Italy, forcing Croatia to turn to the only Great Power available for protection, Germany. Then again, it could be a 'breathing hole' into the Mediterranean for Germany.

Of course, this scenario would pretty much require a civil war as I somehow doubt the Hungarian nobility would let any part of what they viewed as Hungarian lands go. I suppose Croatia is a bit better off than Slovakia or Transylvania since it always had something of a unique status in the Empire and the Hungarian half of the monarchy, but I doubt they'd be allowed to leave just like that, even with the blessing of Berlin and Vienna.

All in all, it requires a lot of what-ifs to work, but it's the best I can think of right now, short of a PoD way back in the Middle Ages.

[wiking]

Have AH be ridiculously stupid and create a third kingdom out of a Croatian dominated Southern Slav union. If/when the war rolls around Serbia is annexed into the union and the Croats dominate it through language and culture.

[General_Finley]

The best way for their be a greater Croatia with a pre-1900 Pod is for the Croatians to win a decisive victory at the Battle of Krbava field in 1493. If Croatia-Hungary wins than they might be able to get a peace with the Ottomans, like the one the Habsburgs had with the Ottomans later on. The Ottomans will likely return one day, but they will likely focus on taking Belgrade and then Buda. If there is a battle like Battle of Mohács and the ruling dynasty is wiped out,when the Habsburgs take control just as OTL, they will likely win back all of Croatia just as how they won back all of Hungary OTL.

[Janprimus]

Originally Posted by Arrix85

But a stronger Hungary, especially the nobles, wouldn't so easily accept foreign rule, to be handed over through inheritance. Anyway, to stay on topic: I know nothing about the early croatian kingdom (and the personal union with Hungary you mentioned), so don't know how that could that play out.

Objections to foreign rule? The dynasties of Anjou and Luxemburg had ruled in Hungary before the Habsburgs (Albert and Ladislaus), then there was a period with the house of Jagiellon and after that another branch of the house of Habsburg (Ferdinand) took over. An when the Arpad dynasty ended there were also the houses of Premyslid and Wittelsbach (and the house of Habsburg (but they were the least succesful in that period)).

An independent kingdom of Croatia after 1097 (end of previous dynasty) 1102 (Hungarian Arpads also became king of Croatia) would still have had Hungary as a very strong northern neighbour; expanding into Bosnia & Hercegovina might be their only viable option for expansion.

[abc123]

Massive butterflies would be nescesarry for ANY independent Croatia before OTL, let alone Greater Croatia.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by yourworstnightmare

Have the Bosnian kingdom survive!!!

Oh, right, wouldn't help Croatia.

Well, actually, it could.
If Tvrtko had lived a decade longer, he could conquer all of Croatia, transferr his seat from Bosnia in Croatia, and in generation or two, you could get Croatian- Bosnian Kingdom, Turkish invasion could be a problem trough...

[GenghisKhanfan]

Originally Posted by abc123

Massive butterflies would be nescesarry for ANY independent Croatia before OTL, let alone Greater Croatia.

IF the premise of an independent Croatia were possible, it could lead to an early union with Bosnia, and therefore pose a challenge to the Hungarians, the Austrian Hapsburgs, the Ottoman Turks, and later..the Serbians. Perhaps the assassination of Franz Ferdinand might never happen.......or instead of a Serbian assassin, there is a Croatian assassin.

[Janprimus]

Originally Posted by abc123

Massive butterflies would be nescesarry for ANY independent Croatia before OTL, let alone Greater Croatia.

There was an independent kingdom of Croatia from 925 AD to 1097/1102 AD.

[GenghisKhanfan]

Originally Posted by Janprimus

There was an independent kingdom of Croatia from 925 AD to 1097/1102 AD.

Very true...and if they had forged a personal union with Bosnia, Croatia could've developed a dynasty like the Hapsburgs in time. PLUS..Bosnia being mountainous, Croatia would've had a bulwark against Turkish encroachment.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by Janprimus

There was an independent kingdom of Croatia from 925 AD to 1097/1102 AD.

I know. I meant, after that period.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by GenghisKhanfan

Very true...and if they had forged a personal union with Bosnia, Croatia could've developed a dynasty like the Hapsburgs in time. PLUS..Bosnia being mountainous, Croatia would've had a bulwark against Turkish encroachment.

I doubt that Croatia alone could defend it self against the Turks.
Turks were simply too strong in 15th and 16th century.

[GenghisKhanfan]

Originally Posted by abc123

I doubt that Croatia alone could defend it self against the Turks.
Turks were simply too strong in 15th and 16th century.

Agreed. But there's the possibility that Croatia-Bosnia would've survived the occupation by Turkey and emerged under a Croatian or possibly a Bosnian dynasty.

[abc123]

Originally Posted by GenghisKhanfan

Agreed. But there's the possibility that Croatia-Bosnia would've survived the occupation by Turkey and emerged under a Croatian or possibly a Bosnian dynasty.

It's a long shot...