Prime Minister Halifax

[luakel]

If Lord Halifax had become PM in 1940, what do you guys think he would do?

[Max Sinister]

If he'd offer peace, Hitler would accept, since this is exactly what he wanted: France knocked out, Italy allied, Britain won't interfere with Barbarossa. Unless of course, Hitler becomes greedy and demands half the Empire for peace...

[Fellatio Nelson]

Also depends on what happens to the BEF in France (presumably he would become PM on 10/5/40).

If there were no successful evacuation of the majority of its manpower - perhaps political wrangling over leaving the French - it would leave tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of British POWs. Maybe the French would not have held on to the Dunkirk perimeter for as long if they felt the British PM was more likely to come to terms with Hitler, leading to far more POWs in German hands.

This would influence public and political opinion; it would be seen as a wholesale and unmitigated disaster and the knowledge of so many POWs being held until peace talks ended would pressurise the govt.

I don't believe the British would have sued for peace if the terms were too severe: the Royal Navy must remain in being and the Empire must remain relatively intact. There was sufficient will to fight on if the alternative was virtual occupation or subjugation; perhaps not if an 'honourable' and seemingly equitable treaty could be signed and was being advocated by the PM.

Perhaps because of perceived necessity, much of the Mediterranean would be vacated by the RN - Churchil was advised to do this in 1940 - so the takeover of Malta and possible loss or demilitarisation of Gibraltar, Cyprus and (perhaps even) Alexandria would be seen as in any case inevitable, so could have been accepted as a part of the deal.

However, in the long term the British would be subjugated by the Germans; especially if they were able to overcome the USSR. Perhaps war would re-occur between the two over the Japanese or when the USA felt sufficiently worried to seek a foothold and powerful ally in Europe.

[David S Poepoe]

I think Halifax would have agreed to an Anglo-German ceasefire, but used the few years while Germany turned on Russia, to rebuild the British military. Backed by the resources of the Empire the British could have had a fighting chance against Germany.

[luakel]

But why would he want to get the war going again anyway? Wasn't he an appeaser?

[David S Poepoe]

Originally Posted by luakel

But why would he want to get the war going again anyway? Wasn't he an appeaser?

No, I don't believe he was. He certainly isn't in the case of Chamberlain (tho he had served as his foreign minister), but even the appeasers eventually 'woke up' to the threat of Hitler. I think anyone probably would have figured out that once Nazi Germany had turned around and beaten Russia that it could and certainly would turn its attention to Britain again.

[luakel]

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

No, I don't believe he was. He certainly isn't in the case of Chamberlain (tho he had served as his foreign minister), but even the appeasers eventually 'woke up' to the threat of Hitler. I think anyone probably would have figured out that once Nazi Germany had turned around and beaten Russia that it could and certainly would turn its attention to Britain again.

But if it had beaten Russia, wouldn't Germany be to powerful for Britain to beat?

[Chengar Qordath]

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

No, I don't believe he was. He certainly isn't in the case of Chamberlain (tho he had served as his foreign minister), but even the appeasers eventually 'woke up' to the threat of Hitler.

I would have to agree that Halifax was not an appeaser, though as I recall he was fairly pessimistic about Britain's odds of winning the war, especially after the fall of France.

Originally Posted by David S Poepoe

I think anyone probably would have figured out that once Nazi Germany had turned around and beaten Russia that it could and certainly would turn its attention to Britain again.

Not neccesarily, remember that Hitler greatly admired the British Empire and was not to enthusiastic about fighting with Britain. I could see diplomatic maneuvering with Britain though, and likely an attempt to use economic pressure to bring British policy in line with Hitler's ideas. I would think once the Soviets were done with there would more likely be a Cold War type of situation, as the Britain would not want a war due to the risk of invasion, and Hitler would not want a war due to his strange racial ideas.

[Wendell]

Certainly, Hitler would insist on certain concessions from the Empire.

[luakel]

Originally Posted by Wendell

Certainly, Hitler would insist on certain concessions from the Empire.

You mean as in the pre-WWI colonies?

[wkwillis]

Halifax makes peace and contentedly watches as the Germans and Russians kill each other, except that Germany would be attacking without surprise and without Rumania at the very least. Probably without the rest of the Balkans, too.
Back then the German army was out of ammo, out of armaments, and out of position. They had half the airforce they had had the last month, and one fourth of what they had during Barbarossa. The Russians would just have rolled west till they got to the Adriatic, or the German army, whichever came first.
In OTL the Balkan armies didn't fight without motivation. In Yugoslavia it took a year before they started interfering with the Germans in any significant way. They killed maybe a hundred German soldiers in the initial invasion. Poland killed tens of thousands in their war with Germany.
Halifax is not going to be very happy about the Russian submarine navy, the largest one in the world, sinking the British merchant marine that is shipping stuff to Germany all the while the war is going on. With the intelligence that the labor union controlled dockers would be giving the Russians on which ship had the good stuff.
Oh, and we wouldn't be giving the British Lend-Lease, either. We didn't want either side to win any more than the British did, or the Russians did before the Germans attacked them and the fight was between the British and the Germans.
Figure on the Labor party giving the Tories the boot the minute the war is over and the elections are held. The elections were due and as soon as they were held in OTL the Tories were turfed out.
Of course, the Tories could try a coup....

[Wendell]

Originally Posted by luakel

You mean as in the pre-WWI colonies?

yes, like the former colonies, or a strategic outpost somewhere.

[Valamyr]

Hitler was willing to settle for minimal gains in summer of 1940. Ie, less than all the former German colonies.

Starting spring 1941, he'd settle for just a white peace, im sure. The empire he wanted was in the East, not in Africa.

[MarkA]

Halifax was a 'real' Tory who together with Chamberlain wanted both Germany and the Soviet Union to 'slog it out' while the west sat back and watched. In other words he was totally out of touch with reality.

No British PM could afford politically to make peace either before or after the Fall of France if the British Army was intact. There were enough Conservative MPs willing to cross the floor to defeat the government if they tried. Honour was paramount to the thinking current in Britain at the time.

I don't think many Britons took Hitler seriously when he gushed about the Empire or how much he admired them. As Beaverbrook said (the fighter pilot son not the father) 'They tried to kill us - to enslave us'. How could anyone take Hitler's word on anything in 1940?

wkwillis your contempt for the working class is strange indeed since it was mainly them (again as always) who did the most fighting during the war. But then again Regan imagined he was a war hero and the present administration all believe they are! So maybe conservative Americans really are just stupid.