Non-industrializing Westernization

I was just looking at a thread about a "Chinese meiji", and the poster accidentally used the term "Westernization" when he meant "industrialization." And it got me wondering; is there a country where the colonial West successfully exported its culture and values without resorting to genocide?

India, Indonesia, much of the Middle East, and all of Africa were at one point ruled by a Western power, and none of them are culturally Western. China is modernizing fast and its doing it without adopting Western values. Japan did the same thing 150 years ago (Japan's a bit of a special case; it has, on the surface, Western values, but is definitely not culturally Western).

On the other hand, countries like the US, Mexico, Argentina, and Canada are all post-colonial Western cultures, but that is because the natives were rid of through genocide, and their populations are majority settler.

So is there any country that is culturally Western that is not a western country (without genocide)? Could such a country exist, if there are none?

I'm putting this in the Pre-1900 forum because I assume you'd have to have an early PoD.

Off topic, theres a game called Europa Universalis that gives non Western-Tech countries the ability to Westernize (which, game mechanics wise, simple means that rather than say, the Chinese Tech-Group being at 40% research efficiency, it has the western tech-group 100%)

On topic though, to my knowledge though, there is no such country or culture that did such. It is possible that maybe if the Aztec, Mayan, or Incans hadn't been swallowed by the Spanish that they may have adopted some western cultural ideas (and if they wished to survive, western technology).

So say, a PoD could be that the Aztec, rather than welcoming Cortez and the Spanish, would instead be distrustful of them and take them prisoner. This could have the effect of the Aztecs steadily absorbing western ideas in the manner in which you speak off.

I'm surprised. There are no countries anywhere that have a Western culture that aren't ruled out? What about in the Pacific?

I think you've answered it.

Japan industrialized for the most part, and took what they liked of western culture and implanted it into Japanese culture. That may be as close as it gets.

If you literally mean the Pacific, I'm almost completely certain that there is none.

Ganesha said:

On the other hand, countries like the US, Mexico, Argentina, and Canada are all post-colonial Western cultures, but that is because the natives were rid of through genocide, and their populations are majority settler.

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Mexico does not belong in that category. The majority of the population has significant Amerindian ancestry, and this is evident from their physical appearance and culture.

Secondly, why is it surprising you so much that a country wouldn't want to become Westernized without the benefits of industrialization? Without the superior technology, Western civilization can't compete with the Native ones on their own turf.

What do you even mean by "westernization" in this context? Eating habits? Philosophy? Building styles? Religion? Just adapting random cultural aspects from Europe? Most of the time, there was no real reason to adopt foreign customs. They were either wildly inappropriate, or had a negative impact, or there was simply no point in introducing them.

One example that comes to mind were the attempts to create a Catholic state in the Congo region through Portugeuse influence, and as far as I know that didn't come to much in the long run.

An ATL possibility that comes to mind, perhaps, would be to run a scenario similar to the Hinduization of southeast Asia, but in the Americas. This would probably require much earlier, and slower, discovery and exploration of these lands. Perhaps a discovery of the New World in the 1100's or 1200's would work like this. Diseases are introduced slowly, populations bounce back, European merchants would trade and occasionally settle down with local wives, missionaries would spread the good word. This would create an extension of "Western" civilization adapted to local conditions and largely under local domination.

Finn said:

Secondly, why is it surprising you so much that a country wouldn't want to become Westernized without the benefits of industrialization? Without the superior technology, Western civilization can't compete with the Native ones on their own turf.

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It's not surprising to me; it just occurred to me that I couldn't think of such a country and I was wondering if there were any. I'm not sure what you mean by the second part of what you said; can you explain further?

Ganesha said:

China is modernizing fast and its doing it without adopting Western values.

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You think Marxism and Communism were Chinese inventions?

Traditional Chinese culture is largely gone. Not even the clothing and hairstyles survive. It's been replaced by Western concepts like socialism and state capitalism. Chinese kids learn western math and science. They don't go to college to study the Confucian classics.

The Chinese Communist Party was founded as a movement to sweep China clean of stifling traditions and replace it with then the newest of Western ideology.

It seems you're defining Western values narrowly as contemporary democratic values. This is hardly accurate. One century ago, liberal democratic values were anything but universally accepted in Europe.

tallwingedgoat said:

You think Marxism and Communism were Chinese inventions?

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You think China is a Marxist state?

Traditional Chinese culture is largely gone. Not even the clothing and hairstyles survive. It's been replaced by Western concepts like socialism and state capitalism. Chinese kids learn western math and science. They don't go to college to study the Confucian classics.

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Clothing and hairstyles are superficial measurements of culture and values. The Leninist apparatus of the CCP has had it's most success by reclaiming and revitalizing traditional Chinese values, and has clear origins in the vast bureaucracies of traditional Chinese society. China is run on a Chinese value system, despite Western trappings such as socialist slogans (which are now lip service) and capitalist stylings (which are largely for the benefit of foreign investors and observers).

There is no western math and science. There is math and science. The fact that students are studying these subjects instead of the classics (though they are also studying the Classics these days too) is just a reflection of traditional Chinese attitudes toward education.

The Chinese Communist Party was founded as a movement to sweep China clean of stifling traditions and replace it with then the newest of Western ideology.

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Sure. Didn't work.

It seems you're defining Western values narrowly as contemporary democratic values. This is hardly accurate. One century ago, liberal democratic values were anything but universally accepted in Europe.

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And it seems to me like you're defining Chinese values as yin-yang and funny hats. Communism, like the Manchus, the Mongols and Buddhism, is in the process of being digested and incorporated into Chinese civilization.

Couldn't you just say that contemporary globalisation is this: Western cinema, literature, art and politics taking root in different areas, bringing them closer culturally to Europe/America.

tormsen said:

You think China is a Marxist state?



Clothing and hairstyles are superficial measurements of culture and values. The Leninist apparatus of the CCP has had it's most success by reclaiming and revitalizing traditional Chinese values, and has clear origins in the vast bureaucracies of traditional Chinese society. China is run on a Chinese value system, despite Western trappings such as socialist slogans (which are now lip service) and capitalist stylings (which are largely for the benefit of foreign investors and observers).

There is no western math and science. There is math and science. The fact that students are studying these subjects instead of the classics (though they are also studying the Classics these days too) is just a reflection of traditional Chinese attitudes toward education.



Sure. Didn't work.




And it seems to me like you're defining Chinese values as yin-yang and funny hats. Communism, like the Manchus, the Mongols and Buddhism, is in the process of being digested and incorporated into Chinese civilization.

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I agree with tormsen... Tallwingedgoat is taking a very essentialist approach to culture. When you say that the traditional clothing and hairstyles are gone, I'd counter, which clothing and which hairstyles? The fashions the Chinese wore under the Han dynasty are not the same fashions the Chinese wore under the Ming dynasty, and that's not even taking into account the many different regional variations of Chinese culture.

Culture is not some static entity that never changes and never interacts with foreign influences. Culture is all about change. Cultures adopt foreign influences by assessing and assimilating them within their own unique cultural framework, not by outright shedding their old worldview and replacing it with a new one.

Personally, I don't think "western values" are a useful concept. The west will never agree on what they are.

Ganesha said:

On the other hand, countries like the US, Mexico, Argentina, and Canada are all post-colonial Western cultures, but that is because the natives were rid of through genocide, and their populations are majority settler.

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No...

Thailand perhaps?

tormsen said:

There is no western math and science. There is math and science. .

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To be frank, this just shows how deeply the West has managed to spread certain elements of its culture. They are now so obvious, so ingrained, that we cannot think of them as part of a specific culture anymore.

I'd agree with you, but it makes the OP look very silly, since it is essentially asking something that is contrary to the nature of culture.

pa_dutch said:

Culture is not some static entity that never changes and never interacts with foreign influences. Culture is all about change. Cultures adopt foreign influences by assessing and assimilating them within their own unique cultural framework, not by outright shedding their old worldview and replacing it with a new one.

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tormsen said:

What do you even mean by "westernization" in this context? Eating habits? Philosophy? Building styles? Religion? Just adapting random cultural aspects from Europe?

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Even more fundamentally: What do you mean by "Western"?
Like Europe in 1950? In 1900? In 1800? In 500 AD?

I believe the era he was particularly referring to would be the mid to late 1800's.

Saepe Fidelis said:

Couldn't you just say that contemporary globalisation is this: Western cinema, literature, art and politics taking root in different areas, bringing them closer culturally to Europe/America.

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Because that's a quaint and incorrect view. Anime in the West, Korean dramas in Asia, Bollywood musicals in Central Asia, Nigerian films throughout Africa are all aspects of contemporary globalization.

There was a period during which the superficial forms of Western art and philosophical ideas enjoyed a global ascendancy, but that had it's heyday in the mid 20th century and has been in a process of slow retreat since then. And in general, while these processes certainly created change in the cultures they impacted, they didn't necessarily bring them closer to the West culturally.

tormsen said:

You think China is a Marxist state?

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Not now, but it aspired to be, and continue to be effected by that history. You can't deny that the Chinese Revolution is based on Western revolutionary ideals. China embraced Communism, which is not some sort of development out of traditional Chinese culture.

Clothing and hairstyles are superficial measurements of culture and values.

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Wrong, symbols are powerful indicators of pysche. Particularly in a Confucian society where dress and hairstyle are codified uniforms which changed little for twenty centuries until the Manchu invasion. If we look at modern Chinese dress and hair styles, it is basically entirely western for both men and women. The Japanese are more traditional with traditional dress reserved for formal occasions. Indians are even more so as they continue to wear traditional dress as street wear.

The Leninist apparatus of the CCP has had it's most success by reclaiming and revitalizing traditional Chinese values, and has clear origins in the vast bureaucracies of traditional Chinese society. China is run on a Chinese value system, despite Western trappings such as socialist slogans (which are now lip service) and capitalist stylings (which are largely for the benefit of foreign investors and observers).

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China's bureaucratic tradition is vastly different than the modern Communist legacy system. Historically the Chinese bureaucracy was small and relatively unintrusive. It was only during the Communist era when the CPC copied Soviet methods that state penetration into the village level was achieved. Before that various Chinese regimes tried and failed to use the traditional bureaucracy to run a modern state. The rehabilitation of Confucian ideas is much more recent. Certainly Confucianism was never successfully eradicated, but China today is more Western than traditional.

There is no western math and science. There is math and science. The fact that students are studying these subjects instead of the classics (though they are also studying the Classics these days too) is just a reflection of traditional Chinese attitudes toward education.

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Again wrong. Math and sciences as taught today use the universal format of Arabic numerals, scientic method, peer review papers, with confered university degrees systems which all bear Western academic tradition. Had the modern world been invented outside the West (if it were possible) it would share similar scientific conclusions, but the way in which it's practiced would be significantly different.

And it seems to me like you're defining Chinese values as yin-yang and funny hats. Communism, like the Manchus, the Mongols and Buddhism, is in the process of being digested and incorporated into Chinese civilization.

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It seems to me you have a bizzare definition of what is Western based entirely on contemporary narrative. Was the United States a Western country circa 1860 when only 5% of the population could vote and had institutionalized slavery? If we were to compare that to China, the latter would be more Western by definition.

I don't think people understand what they mean when they claim the world isn't already Westernized. Sure they aren't all North Atlantic systems, but the world is otherwise Westernized to the point that we are arguing whether a traditional society which adopted Communism didn't go Western enough.

Does the Chinese adopt Western commercial and banking methods? Yes. Do they still have polygamous marriages? No. Does the government have to legitimize itself by claiming to be popular and seeking democratic reform on the long run? Yes. Are Chinese people communicating with you using Western based website in English or vice versa?

tallwingedgoat said:

Again wrong. Math and sciences as taught today use the universal format of Arabic numerals, scientic method, peer review papers, with confered university degrees systems which all bear Western academic tradition. Had the modern world been invented outside the West (if it were possible) it would share similar scientific conclusions, but the way in which it's practiced would be significantly different.

I don't think people understand what they mean when they claim the world isn't already Westernized. Sure they aren't all North Atlantic systems, but the world is otherwise Westernized to the point that we are arguing whether a traditional society which adopted Communism didn't go Western enough.

Does the Chinese adopt Western commercial and banking methods? Yes. Do they still have polygamous marriages? No. Does the government have to legitimize itself by claiming to be popular and seeking democratic reform on the long run? Yes. Are Chinese people communicating with you using Western based website in English or vice versa?

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So essentially what you're saying is that ALL countries are to a large extend Westernized? What do you think a Sinified or an Indified science or banking system would be like? Are there any examples of those?