Franco enters the war short timeline.

[fort-capuzzo]

Franco enters the war!

October 1940 – Franco agrees to Hitler’s request for Spain to enter the war in January 1941.

December 1940 – One German Panzer Division is sent to Libya to aid in the Italian defence of the colony.
German airpower is also sent to the area.

January 1941 – After the capture of the Rock, the Spaniards are assisted in closing the Straits with German airpower.
The Canaries and Spanish Morocco are reinforced by air.
The British attack and capture the Canary Islands but suffer heavy loses with on going air attacks by German planes flying from French and Spanish Morocco.

February 1941 – The British advance in Libya is stopped and pushed back with Benghazi still in Axis hands.
The remains of the Italian Tenth army are saved.
The British seize the Azores and Madeira from Portugal.
This prompts a German invasion of Portugal.
Salazar orders his troops not to resist the invasion.
Salazar becomes a German puppet and joins the Tripartite pact.
All Portuguese territory in Asia is taken by the British.
Afrika Korps drives the British out of Libya.
Tobruk falls to Axis forces.

March 1941 – Angola and Mozambique are captured by British forces.
Hitler despatches three more Panzer Divisions to Libya.

April 1941 -Forces of Germany, Hungary, and Italy, moving through Rumania and Hungary, initiate the invasions of Yugoslavia and Greece.
The Italian Army is driven out from Addis Ababa, Ethiopia.
Yugoslavia surrenders.
The Kingdom of Yugoslavia is split up by Germany and Italy. The Independent State of Croatia (Nezavisna Država Hrvatska, NDH) is established under Ante Pavelić and his Ustaša.
Athens is occupied by German troops. Greece surrenders.
The Canary Islands re-taken by the Axis forces with the assistance of the Italian navy and heavy air support.
The German navy breaks out into the Atlantic before heading for Vichy France.

May 1941 – Egypt captured by Axis forces.

[fastmongrel]

While all this is happening what is going on with Barbarossa. The Mediteranean was just a sideshow for the Germans if they get too involved this, is it going to to mean Barbarossa is delayed for a year. Giving enough time for the Soviets to make lots more T-34s.

[Grimm Reaper]

An Italian fleet already crippled at Taranto entering the Atlantic and seizing the Canary Islands with nil landing capacity, after which the German fleet embarks on a suicide run through the English Channel...

[fort-capuzzo]

Originally Posted by fastmongrel

While all this is happening what is going on with Barbarossa. The Mediteranean was just a sideshow for the Germans if they get too involved this is going to to mean Barbarossa is delayed for a year. Giving enough time for the Soviets to make lots more T-34s.

Operation Barbarossa would not have been a prime objective in 1941 had Franco entered the war.
German forces could have been need in Spain, Portugal, Libya and the Balkans and even more so the airpower.
Which would mean as you say in 1942 a still neutral USSR would be much stronger in military terms.

[fort-capuzzo]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

An Italian fleet already crippled at Taranto entering the Atlantic and seizing the Canary Islands with nil landing capacity, after which the German fleet embarks on a suicide run through the English Channel...

The Italian fleet would have a lot of air cover from French and Spanish Morocco and Spain.
The German fleet could attempt a break out into the North Atlantic while the Royal Navy is busy with the Italian fleet.

[archaeogeek]

Originally Posted by fort-capuzzo

The Italian fleet would have a lot of air cover from French and Spanish Morocco and Spain.
The German fleet could attempt a break out into the North Atlantic while the Royal Navy is busy with the Italian fleet.

The Commander and 2IC of the french navy along with a large part of its officers were "traitors" to Vichy in communication with the americans. Darlan ordered all ships not to leave port after Mers el Kebir. The french navy is not going to fight for the axis.

[Grimm Reaper]

The British forces at Gibralter or, now, the Canaries, plus the Med Fleet are superior to the Italians leaving the Home Fleet to face the Kriegsmarine with at least a three to one edge in capital ships and much more in cruisers and destroyers. Not to mention that the RAF is available against any dash through the Channel.

I also have this image of a few British cruisers embarking on a mad dash of their own which lays waste to Tripoli and Benghazi and destroys the Axis supply situation in Libya if they can be assured that the Italian fleet is away.

[fort-capuzzo]

Originally Posted by archaeogeek

The Commander and 2IC of the french navy along with a large part of its officers were "traitors" to Vichy in communication with the americans. Darlan ordered all ships not to leave port after Mers el Kebir. The french navy is not going to fight for the axis.

The French Navy isnt fighting for the Axis.

[Dr. Strangelove]

Did Hitler agree to Franco's ludicrous request of Portugal, Morocco, Algeria, plus supplies and weapons for the entire spanish army, navy and airforce, plus assistance in rebuilding Spain after the civil war?

[fort-capuzzo]

The British forces at Gibralter or, now, the Canaries, plus the Med Fleet are superior to the Italians leaving the Home Fleet to face the Kriegsmarine with at least a three to one edge in capital ships and much more in cruisers and destroyers. Not to mention that the RAF is available against any dash through the Channel.

The Royal Navy had a hard enough time catching the Bismark which was the same time as this break out.
The Royal Navy will mostly be deployed against the Italians fearing an Atlantic break out as the RN planned.
The the RN will face a massive disadvantage in airpower around the Canary Islands.

I also have this image of a few British cruisers embarking on a mad dash of their own which lays waste to Tripoli and Benghazi and destroys the Axis supply situation in Libya if they can be assured that the Italian fleet is away.

If the RN wants to do suicide runs against a mass of German and Italian airpower or risk running into capital ships in Libya at the same time they can try.

[Grimm Reaper]

Axis air power will be more effective only months after losing the Battle of Britain when fighting from vastly inferior facilities in French North Africa, many of them having to be established from nothing and assuming Vichy France even agrees, while the closest bit of the Canary islands is 60 miles away from any part of Africa. Compared to the smaller distance between England and occupied France in 1940.

[archaeogeek]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

Did Hitler agree to Franco's ludicrous request of Portugal, Morocco, Algeria, plus supplies and weapons for the entire spanish army, navy and airforce, plus assistance in rebuilding Spain after the civil war?

Naturally, it's so much better to prop up a clown than keep troops on your soviet border fed when everyone on the other side of it knows they're next.

[fort-capuzzo]

Originally Posted by Dr. Strangelove

Did Hitler agree to Franco's ludicrous request of Portugal, Morocco, Algeria, plus supplies and weapons for the entire spanish army, navy and airforce, plus assistance in rebuilding Spain after the civil war?

He has agreed to the supplies and handing over French Morocco.
Portugal after the British have taken the Azores and Madeira etc was occupied by the Germans and is now an Axis minor power still under Salazar.

[von Adler]

The German and Italian track record against navies was not exactly good. The Germans and Italians had more or less air superiority at Kap Matapan, and the British still trashed the Italians quite well.

From what bases are the Luftwaffe and Regia Marina operating? I know very few airfields that can support massive amounts of planes from the western coast of French North Africa. Also, both German and Italian fighters are quite short-ranged. The Bf 109F had an operational range of 305km. The Canary Islands are 115km from Africa at its absolute closest. Like with the Battle of Britain, the Germans have very short fighter escort times over the islands. How do they establish air superiority and then drive the Royal Navy out of the islands?

Also, how do the Germans capture Egypt? There's a question of supply - they need half their ENTIRE supply of trucks to supply four panzer divisions at El Alamein from Tripoli. How do you handwave that away?

[gigalocus]

Originally Posted by fort-capuzzo

The Italian fleet would have a lot of air cover from French and Spanish Morocco and Spain.
The German fleet could attempt a break out into the North Atlantic while the Royal Navy is busy with the Italian fleet.

Like it's been said. The French fleet is going nowhere. The Italian fleet didn't do alot of movement after Taranto, and if it did it would be focused on defending Libya. The British Mediterranean fleet with its carriers is still fine.

Originally Posted by fort-capuzzo

The Royal Navy had a hard enough time catching the Bismark which was the same time as this break out.

But, to be fair, the Bismark was just one ship (Well, it had one other, Prinz Eugen? But she turned around at some point) but the worst part of her voyage was, after Hood she succeeded none of her objectives and didn't get to raid any convoys.

Bismarck bearly makes it out of the North sea but the entire Kreigsmarine is going to get all the way to the Canaries? With the Bismarck gone, the Tirpitz still lay uncommisioned, Gneisenau in dry dock, what real firepower has the Kreigsmarine got?

[Grimm Reaper]

The RN outclasses the entire Italian and German fleets more than two to one in capital ships if you count the two undersized German battlecruisers with 11" guns as capital ships and has several carriers to none.

The difference between the Bismark going alone north of Scotland and being sunk nonetheless and a fleet going through the Channel in full view of the RAF and RN is massive.

The Home Fleet will not be deployed around the Canaries or any other place than the British Isles.

Proclaiming an Axis air advantage off the Canaries is one thing, proving it is something you have not done. Perhaps if you had shown some awareness of Axis aircraft range in 1941, facilities available to serve as air bases in French North Africa in 1941, the supply situation in French North Africa in 1941, the size of the Canary Islands...

As for this vision of Axis air power massed in French Morrocco somehow being in Libya at the same time or Italy's three functioning battleships being off the Canaries and Libya at the same time...



Ah. So the British have seized all the Spanish and Portguese islands but naturally RAF units on the others will do nothing to help the RAF on the Canaries.

The logistical system in French North Africa undoubtedly collapsed when the French withdrew so Axis air power in this part of the world won't be viable for quite some time.



von Adler, if the Luftwaffe is forced to fight anywhere but the very closest edge of the islands then...I feel very sorry for the German pilots in Bf 109fs who have to go a mere 125 kilometers each way leaving sufficient fuel for...is that even a minute in combat before they start planning where to parachute out?

[fort-capuzzo]

Part 2

June 1941 - Vichy French-controlled Syria and Lebanon are invaded by Australian, British, Free French, and Indian forces.
The German Fleet which reached Western France in mostly good condition arrives in the Mediterranean to hook up with Italian and Spanish ships.
Some of these vessels will now be up dated in Italian ports with German technology.
The rest of the fleet in a combined air operation will head east and occupy Cyprus.

July 1941 – Reinforced Axis forces drive into the Middle East.
The British manage to check the advance for a time.
British and Canadian troops in Iceland, Madeira, Cape Verde Islands and the Azores are replaced by Americans.

August 1941 - Turkey enters the war receiving Cyprus, Certain Greek Islands, Lebanon and Syria in compensation.
British forces withdraw into Iraq.
A second Iraqi uprising is put down by the British.
British forces occupy Iran.

September 1941 – Axis forces invade Sudan with support of Axis naval units.
Axis forces invade and capture Iraq and Kuiwait.
The British withdraw to Persia where they face a Persian uprising which they manage to put down.
Franklin D. Roosevelt orders the United States Navy to shoot on sight if any ship or convoy is threatened.

[Cook]

What Fort-capuzzo is describing is Operation Flix.

Originally Posted by archaeogeek

The Commander and 2IC of the french navy along with a large part of its officers were "traitors" to Vichy in communication with the americans. Darlan ordered all ships not to leave port after Mers el Kebir. The french navy is not going to fight for the axis.

This is not correct.

Following the British attacks on the French fleet Darlan told his subordinates that ‘a state of war exists with Britain’ and French aircraft bombed Gibraltar from their bases in North Africa. Far from being ordered to remain in port, a squadron of French navy cruisers ran the Straits of Gibraltar on 11 September 1940 and made for Casablanca. They were later to cause the British and ‘Free French’ attempt to take Dakar such a fiasco.
Darlan later met Hitler at Berchtesgaden and discussed closer collaboration with Germany, providing access to French air bases in Syria for German aircraft on their war to Iraq.

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

after which the German fleet embarks on a suicide run through the English Channel...

The Battleships Scharnhorst and Gneisnau and the cruiser Prinz Eugen achieved just such a ‘suicide run’ through the English Channel at the end of 1941, when the British defences of the English Channel were stronger.

[fort-capuzzo]

Originally Posted by Grimm Reaper

Axis air power will be more effective only months after losing the Battle of Britain when fighting from vastly inferior facilities in French North Africa, many of them having to be established from nothing and assuming Vichy France even agrees, while the closest bit of the Canary islands is 60 miles away from any part of Africa. Compared to the smaller distance between England and occupied France in 1940.

Vichy would agree as they did in OTL.
Axis air power in early 1941 was quite considerable.
The RN will have little protection from it around the Canaries.

[archaeogeek]

Spain barely has a navy at all in 1939: if it enters the war it will get raided pretty much at will, even the FFL have stronger naval forces.

Vichy can agree all it want, Darlan doesn't and he's the only one who counts in the colonies once he defects; I can see TTL Darlan bringing a fleet along. IOTL Vichy didn't tend to agree to let Germany operate on its soil, no, and German spies were routinely shot. The Germans didn't mind because they saw it as training for the survivors and France was otherwise a good puppet: that is until Laval enacted forced labor and stupidly tripled resistance numbers after already losing large parts of the country to the maquis.