Greece or Italy World Super Power

How do you get Greece or Italy to be the World Superpower?

Better yet, how do you get Greece and Italy to be the dueling world superpowers, USA vs. USSR style?


And try to have the POD as late as possible…



(This is a favorite, so maybe try to make it different)
 
Can the Greek world superpower be the Byzantine Empire? (Though my POD for strongest Byzantine control would be in the 600s, so maybe you want a later POD)
 
Imajin said:
Can the Greek world superpower be the Byzantine Empire? (Though my POD for strongest Byzantine control would be in the 600s, so maybe you want a later POD)

I think you could do it in the early 11th c with Basil II arranging for a better succession. Or Isaac Comnenus not being such a wuss and staying on the throne.
 
Imajin said:
Can the Greek world superpower be the Byzantine Empire? (Though my POD for strongest Byzantine control would be in the 600s, so maybe you want a later POD)
Yeah, that POD is way too early…

Maybe Neo-Byzantines, or some kind of late save Byzantines, or something (looking for a late POD here)
 
Byzantine POD circa 1000


or post Lepanto
Christian fleet takes Constantinople. Ottoman Empire collapses and is partitioned between the Hapsburgs and the Italian cities.
TheGreek Hapsburg dependencies become independent during the War of the Mediterranean Succession (which replaces War of Spanish Succession)
THe Italian barts get united during Italian unification
 
Imajin said:
Can the Greek world superpower be the Byzantine Empire? (Though my POD for strongest Byzantine control would be in the 600s, so maybe you want a later POD)

Ah, my favorite topic :D

But, say, if the POD is about 1204, we can have two results: no IVth crusade results in Byzantium eventually rebounding, and kicking the Seljuks out of Anatolia or assimilating them. As it coincides with the Mongol invasion, they might even wait for the Mongol Khanate to start falling apart, and pick up the pieces; given that Mongols would provide some form of access to China and its technological innovations, we can have Renaissanse start on the Bosphorus, and carried over West.

In a meanwhile, the Kingdom of Sicily unites Italy in the next several centuries, and with a Hohenstaufen on the throne (thus HRE-ambitions) reestablishes Western Roman Empire. It is more centralized, if there is still Frederick II or his equivalent, and becomes more of a real nation-state sooner, in effect, it turns into a Western/Italian Byzantium who would like to take over its Eastern counterpart.

Give Byzantium Middle East and its oil, and ambitions on Italian soil, and give Italy Spain (through marriage, conquest, or by other means - maybe the next Crusade goes to crush whatever is left of Granada, and the 'Staufens end up with much territories), and access to the New World when it is discovered, and stage is set for global Cold War, with Byzantium expanding East, and Italy West.

How's that for a basic outline for a scenario?
 
Hermanubis said:
Yeah, that POD is way too early…

Maybe Neo-Byzantines, or some kind of late save Byzantines, or something (looking for a late POD here)
How late, exactly?
 
Wozza said:
Byzantine POD circa 1000


or post Lepanto
Christian fleet takes Constantinople. Ottoman Empire collapses and is partitioned between the Hapsburgs and the Italian cities.
TheGreek Hapsburg dependencies become independent during the War of the Mediterranean Succession (which replaces War of Spanish Succession)
THe Italian barts get united during Italian unification

Riiiiiiiggght. How would they get through the Straits, and what army would they use to do this? This is the Ottoman Empire at it's height and there is no army to match theirs, especially at their capital. This is like saying "What if the Zulu after Isandlwana marched to London, then partitioned the British Empire between themselves and Siam?"
 
Meps. You know my opinion on this.

midgardmetal said:
Ah, my favorite topic :D

But, say, if the POD is about 1204, we can have two results: no IVth crusade results in Byzantium eventually rebounding, and kicking the Seljuks out of Anatolia or assimilating them. As it coincides with the Mongol invasion, they might even wait for the Mongol Khanate to start falling apart, and pick up the pieces; given that Mongols would provide some form of access to China and its technological innovations, we can have Renaissanse start on the Bosphorus, and carried over West.

In a meanwhile, the Kingdom of Sicily unites Italy in the next several centuries, and with a Hohenstaufen on the throne (thus HRE-ambitions) reestablishes Western Roman Empire. It is more centralized, if there is still Frederick II or his equivalent, and becomes more of a real nation-state sooner, in effect, it turns into a Western/Italian Byzantium who would like to take over its Eastern counterpart.

Give Byzantium Middle East and its oil, and ambitions on Italian soil, and give Italy Spain (through marriage, conquest, or by other means - maybe the next Crusade goes to crush whatever is left of Granada, and the 'Staufens end up with much territories), and access to the New World when it is discovered, and stage is set for global Cold War, with Byzantium expanding East, and Italy West.

How's that for a basic outline for a scenario?
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
Riiiiiiiggght. How would they get through the Straits, and what army would they use to do this? This is the Ottoman Empire at it's height and there is no army to match theirs, especially at their capital. This is like saying "What if the Zulu after Isandlwana marched to London, then partitioned the British Empire between themselves and Siam?"

The capital is fairly vulnerable right in the wake of Lepanto. The fall of a capital can have a funny effect.

Yes: I was clutching at straws!
 
Wozza said:
The capital is fairly vulnerable right in the wake of Lepanto. The fall of a capital can have a funny effect.

Yes: I was clutching at straws!

Even if they can seize the capital in the wake of Lepanto, it will won't destroy the Ottoman Empire; the US wasn't destroyed after the Brits took DC in the War of 1812.

However, you might have some sort of civil war like what happened after Tamerlane defeated the Ottomans, though the Latin folks in Constantinople will still have to be dealt with.
 
Interesting ideas. Perhaps a POD where Italy finds some rallying and unifying figure after the Carolingian Empire cracks up? AH!!!

We have the situation vis a vis Pope and Holy Roman Emperor going poorly for the Pope and the Normans arrive in time to save the day, ultimately uniting all of Italy by @1120 AD. Subsequently they advance to take portions of the Balkans and Aragon. The dynastic marriage between Castile and Aragon is instead between Italy and Castile just as that Italian explorer Columbus appears with a strange idea for...
 
midgardmetal said:
How's that for a basic outline for a scenario?
Its pretty good, but I’m looking for PODs as late as possible (maybe not possible for the Byzantines post-1204 as a superpower, but still…)
 
Here are some "really late" PODs, not sure how plausible they are...

It is around 1820, and all of the major powers-that-be (UK, France, Russia) decide that the Ottomans are to be dismantled to good. The Greek independence is a good enough rallying cry, and when the British warships start pounding Constantinople with their cannons, Greek army (much better organized than in OTL) approaches from the South, French one from the West, and Russian from the north, the Sultan has no choice but to surrender completely, whereas he is transported to some hellhole in the depths of Siberia where he lives off the rest of his life in relative obscurity.

The Ottoman territory is then divided between the powers; nominally it is considered reinstituted Greek Empire (or neo-Byzantium, should one call it that); however, it is considered a joint protectorate of the Three Powers, with Constantinople itself a neutral city, and various zones garrisoned by troops of different countries - France in the Balkans, Britain in Asia Minor, Russia in Northern and Eastern Anatolia and Caucasus. Egypt is given to Britain, while some other North African conquests are given to France. Russia gets Caucasian territories.

Italy gets reunited on schedule, similar to OTL; WWI starts similarly enough (although the names might be a bit different, and the cast of characters would vary). Italy stays out, whereas the "Greek Empire" (in which by now the Greeks assume more and more actual, and not figurehead power) is fighting Austro-Hungary with minimal effort. The Russian Revolution occurs pretty much on schedule, however, the Romanovs are able to flee to Constantinople, where, after much lawyering, they are able to assume the throne after death of Greek monarch without any heirs (Romanovs being the descendants of at least a few of the Byzantine Emperors - Constantine IX in particular, and probably a few more).

Italy joins on the Entente side when their victory is getting clearer, and end up getting a few concessions in the Balkans, which the Greeks are none too happy about. This results in "Greece" breaking all ties with remaining Entente powers, and becoming increasingly isolationistic, and relying on its own devices. The Russian civil war draws on, resulting in breaking off of several outlying regions, some of which claim allegiance to the Romanovs.

WWII still happens, although here, Italy decides to stay neutral, and so does "Greece". WWII is longer, bloodier, and exhausts all sides involved, with the issues not being resolved by the end - pretty much think the ending of WWII is similar to the ending of OTL WWI. In a meantime, Italians and Greeks alike enjoy higher living conditions, and make a monetary killing through selling weapons, supplies, and whatnot to both sides. The United States' interference is balanced by Italy and Greece being rather opportunistic, and expanding their own spheres of influence, expanding into the Middle East in the latter's case, and into North Africa in the former's.

As the Cold War draws on in Europe between the Fascist bloc, the Communist bloc, and the Capitalist bloc, Italy and Greece remember old animosities, and enter into a cold war of their own, thus building up their powers and both acquiring nuclear weapons some time in 1960s. As the Fascist and Communist blocs collapse in 1990s, Italy and Greece pick their respective pieces, and emerge as rival superpowers, and rival to the not-as-dominant United States.
 
OK, here's a more recent POD:

Even as Mussolini rises to power in Italy we witness Greece doing a better job in Turkey, to the point that Italy decides to provide a level of support. As a result much of Turkey's coast on the Aegean is lost to Athens.

This partnership will hold for the future, as Turkey is understandably irate at both nations.

A close look ALSO gives some Italians a better idea of the rate at which weapons development is starting to move, and one of these men is in the right place at the right time in 1940.

As a result Italy stays out the war, instead forming the Roman Bloc with Italy(with Libya, Eritrea, Italian Somaliland, Ethiopia, the Dodecanese, most of Albania), Greece(including southern Albania, the western coast of Turkey), Spain(plus colonies), and Portugal(ditto).

During negotiations with Great Britain in 1940 and early 1941 these nations secure a few minor adjustments with Spain receiving a thin slice of French West Africa while Italy obtains French and British Somaliland. More important is that, in an effort to appease Turkey, a larger slice of northern Syria and Iraq is returned to Turkey by the British.

The alliance, including Turkey, spends the war building up industry and technology while improving their military. One key development is that an Italian flier(there were several prominent ones) learns of experiments with jet planes and dives in. By the end of 1944 experimental jet fighters are being tested by Italy. Italy has added three carriers and Spain has two courtesy of dropping the ancient battleships.

October 1944: The decision is made...
 
Wozza said:
The capital is fairly vulnerable right in the wake of Lepanto. The fall of a capital can have a funny effect.

Yes: I was clutching at straws!

In those days it could take a llllllloooooonnnnnnggggg time to get from Lepanto to Istanbul - check a map, too - this is not something you want to try. You have to sail down the Dardanelles, which is about a mile wide and 50 miles long, so numbers are of limited utility, and the fleets at Lepanto did not comprise the entirety of Ottoman naval power in any case, plus all the troops and rowers in the whole allied fleet combined would be dwarved by the army defending the city.
 
That doesn't make Greece one of two superpowers. There is no chance of a country with a population of 5 million becoming a superpower. For Greece to become one you have to go back to Byzantium - there is really no non-ASB scenario after that where you can have a Greek state of any size and power.

Grimm Reaper said:
OK, here's a more recent POD:

Even as Mussolini rises to power in Italy we witness Greece doing a better job in Turkey, to the point that Italy decides to provide a level of support. As a result much of Turkey's coast on the Aegean is lost to Athens.

This partnership will hold for the future, as Turkey is understandably irate at both nations.

A close look ALSO gives some Italians a better idea of the rate at which weapons development is starting to move, and one of these men is in the right place at the right time in 1940.

As a result Italy stays out the war, instead forming the Roman Bloc with Italy(with Libya, Eritrea, Italian Somaliland, Ethiopia, the Dodecanese, most of Albania), Greece(including southern Albania, the western coast of Turkey), Spain(plus colonies), and Portugal(ditto).

During negotiations with Great Britain in 1940 and early 1941 these nations secure a few minor adjustments with Spain receiving a thin slice of French West Africa while Italy obtains French and British Somaliland. More important is that, in an effort to appease Turkey, a larger slice of northern Syria and Iraq is returned to Turkey by the British.

The alliance, including Turkey, spends the war building up industry and technology while improving their military. One key development is that an Italian flier(there were several prominent ones) learns of experiments with jet planes and dives in. By the end of 1944 experimental jet fighters are being tested by Italy. Italy has added three carriers and Spain has two courtesy of dropping the ancient battleships.

October 1944: The decision is made...
 
Abdul Hadi Pasha said:
That doesn't make Greece one of two superpowers. There is no chance of a country with a population of 5 million becoming a superpower. For Greece to become one you have to go back to Byzantium - there is really no non-ASB scenario after that where you can have a Greek state of any size and power.
How late do you think you could go with Byzantium (for a POD) before its too late for it to be a Superpower in 2005?
 
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