Lithuanian Paganism never dies out

It is okay if the majority of Lithuania converts to Christianity, I just need there to be a way for certain populations of Lithuania to never give up Paganism.

Basically, I need Lithuania to be an example of paganism successfully surviving to the modern day without having to be revived by New Age people.

It's best if the POD is in the Early Modern Era, not the Middle Ages.

The Jagellons IIRC converted to Christianity to become the kings of Poland.

Perhaps some kind of compromise is worked out where the Lithuanian pagans retain their religious freedom?

The baptism of Lithuania happened also because of the Teutonic Order, although not in the way the Order intended. It was to remove the purpose of the Order, i.e. fighting the pagans. In medieval Europe invasion of a pagan country was a crusade; invasion of a Christian country was simply an invasion, nothing more. Theoretically, after Lithuania became Christian, the Order should have left Prussia to find some other pagans to fight. Of course it had no intention to do it.
Also, I think that Christians were a majotity in Lithuania. After all, most of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was part of what we today call Belarus, Ukraine and Russia, with Orthodox Christians living there. Lithuanian elite was pagan, and baptism of Lithuania meant baptism of that elite.

seraphim74 said:

Also, I think that Christians were a majotity in Lithuania. After all, most of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was part of what we today call Belarus, Ukraine and Russia, with Orthodox Christians living there. Lithuanian elite was pagan, and baptism of Lithuania meant baptism of that elite.

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But they held these lands only after they converted to Christianity. Before that I guess that a small majority were pagan.

seraphim74 said:

The baptism of Lithuania happened also because of the Teutonic Order, although not in the way the Order intended. It was to remove the purpose of the Order, i.e. fighting the pagans. In medieval Europe invasion of a pagan country was a crusade; invasion of a Christian country was simply an invasion, nothing more. Theoretically, after Lithuania became Christian, the Order should have left Prussia to find some other pagans to fight. Of course it had no intention to do it.
Also, I think that Christians were a majotity in Lithuania. After all, most of the Grand Duchy of Lithuania was part of what we today call Belarus, Ukraine and Russia, with Orthodox Christians living there. Lithuanian elite was pagan, and baptism of Lithuania meant baptism of that elite.

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I don't know what you are trying to say. That Lithuania became Christian? It's not like I didn't know that. I just want a scenario where some Pagans remain, not all of them, just enough for modern Lithuanian paganism to claim to be a continuation, not a revival.

Lithuania didn't get as large as you describe until after it converted to Christianity. However, the core of the Lithuanian people remained largely Pagan well into the 1600s. I just want their to be some Pagan survivors.

Finn said:

I don't know what you are trying to say. That Lithuania became Christian? It's not like I didn't know that. I just want a scenario where some Pagans remain, not all of them, just enough for modern Lithuanian paganism to claim to be a continuation, not a revival.

Lithuania didn't get as large as you describe until after it converted to Christianity. However, the core of the Lithuanian people remained largely Pagan well into the 1600s. I just want their to be some Pagan survivors.

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Eh, Lithuania converted in 1386. It conquered vast majority of its Ruthenian/Russian lands earlier in the same century.
I'm also skeptical about it remaining "largely pagan" into the 1600's. Source on that?

Prem_Rack said:

Eh, Lithuania converted in 1386. It conquered vast majority of its Ruthenian/Russian lands earlier in the same century.
I'm also skeptical about it remaining "largely pagan" into the 1600's. Source on that?

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Ah, seems I misread my sources. Apparently they weren't largely pagan into the 1600s, but that is when the pagan communities finally made the transition from religion to mere folklore.

My goal is to keep them going, as small and rural, but still firmly believing and practicing the worship of their Old Baltic Gods.

Of course, 1386 is an interesting date. Just a hundred, or one hundred and fifty more years, and you have the Reformation, with much bigger problems.

If you break the Teutonic Order, it might remove the impetus to convert so readily. And while it's true that the Lithuanians ruled over many Orthodox Christians, being pagan would be a way to remain neutral between the Orthodox Christians and Catholics.

Hrm. It's a long shot, but even if you delay the conversion a hundred years it might be enough to ensure some survival.

Originally posted by Finn

I don't know what you are trying to say. That Lithuania became Christian? It's not like I didn't know that. I just want a scenario where some Pagans remain, not all of them, just enough for modern Lithuanian paganism to claim to be a continuation, not a revival.

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It was a commentary to Merry Prankster's post. My bad I didn't made it clear.
I also intended to show there were many reasons for Lithuania to become officially Christian: a big part of it was Christian already (Lithuanians started their conquests well before the baptism), there was a Christian threat which could have been at least partially neutralized by the baptism (the Teutonic Order, but not only that); and, as Merry Parankster noticed, there was a chance for Lithuanian Grand Duke to become King of Poland.
So, a lot spoke for the Christianity (which also offered a significant civilisational progress), few things for remaining pagan. Of course at that time it meant that the ruling class was to become Christian and support the Church in christianizing the rest of the people.

Personally, I have my doubts about any bigger chances for the paganism to survive. Sure, some pagan customs remained in Lithuania (as in any Christian country) but Christianity was very good at assimilating some pagan holidays and beliefs (Christmas/Yule/Saturnalia anyone?). If the ruling class converts, it is only a matter of time.
Did it have to convert? I think yes, sooner or later. Even if there was no Teutonic Order, Poland probably would have taken its place organizing crusades against pagan Balts. After all the Christian knights were supposed to fight pagans, didn't they? And the Teutonic Order never complained about lack of volunteers to fight Prussians. Christianity was useful as a shield and an instrument of progress. Of course it didn't have to be Catholicism. Lithuania might have very well gone Orthodox.

Finn said:

It is okay if the majority of Lithuania converts to Christianity, I just need there to be a way for certain populations of Lithuania to never give up Paganism.

Basically, I need Lithuania to be an example of paganism successfully surviving to the modern day without having to be revived by New Age people.

It's best if the POD is in the Early Modern Era, not the Middle Ages.

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Not impossible. From what I read, Lithuanian Paganism really died out among the peasants during the Counter-Reformation. Either prevent the Reformation itself, or make Poland-Lithuania less a target of it (IOTL, Poland was one of the Jesuits' crowning achievements, in that they managed to convert the populace back to Roman Catholicism from a brief Lutheran stint). Keep Russia and its Orthodox proselytizing away from Lithuania. Undisturbed, you may have a tiny minority, perhaps thousands, practicing Lithuanian paganism (probably smaller than the Tatar minority of 15,000, though).

Then, create a breed of nationalism in Lithuania which emphasizes all things "Lithuanian," as opposed to "Polish Sarmatism." This opens the way to nationalistic intellectuals converting to paganism.

Finn said:

I don't know what you are trying to say. That Lithuania became Christian? It's not like I didn't know that. I just want a scenario where some Pagans remain, not all of them, just enough for modern Lithuanian paganism to claim to be a continuation, not a revival.

Lithuania didn't get as large as you describe until after it converted to Christianity. However, the core of the Lithuanian people remained largely Pagan well into the 1600s. I just want their to be some Pagan survivors.

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According to Jesuit "reports" Lithuanian largely remained pagans after 1600s. There there are evidence that in many parts paganism was alive even in 1770. For instance, Kristijonas Donelaitis wrote about local people still praying to their Gods. Worlds famous scientist Birutė Galdikas stated that her father went to the church and on his back way to home he worshiped Perkūnas and so on.
It is hardly possible to assert the exact numbers of pagans in Lithuania since XVIII century. Lithuanians are known to be very stubborn people and pretty "traditionalist", I mean, paganism as such survived in local culture - "cultural preservation".
The better question would be why and how paganism survived and why it was considered so important for local people.

Polish Eagle said:

Not impossible. From what I read, Lithuanian Paganism really died out among the peasants during the Counter-Reformation. Either prevent the Reformation itself, or make Poland-Lithuania less a target of it (IOTL, Poland was one of the Jesuits' crowning achievements, in that they managed to convert the populace back to Roman Catholicism from a brief Lutheran stint). Keep Russia and its Orthodox proselytizing away from Lithuania. Undisturbed, you may have a tiny minority, perhaps thousands, practicing Lithuanian paganism (probably smaller than the Tatar minority of 15,000, though).

Then, create a breed of nationalism in Lithuania which emphasizes all things "Lithuanian," as opposed to "Polish Sarmatism." This opens the way to nationalistic intellectuals converting to paganism.

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This "theory" or in better words - legends were created in XVI-XVII century. It was Roman vs Sarmatism, not Lithuanian Pagansim vs Polish Sarmatism, although some authors, chronicles, writers found many similarities between latin and lithuanian language and between ancient roman gods and Lithuanian Gods.

Thermobaric missile launched.

Zombie negated.