POD no earlier than VE Day. Extra points if Quebec becomes a small-c conservative stronghold by the turn of the century.
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AHC: Delay the Quiet Revolution as long as possible
- Thread starter Francisco Cojuanco
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archaeogeek
Banned
Duplessis dies early, Sauvé becomes premier. Even that would probably not kill the révolution tranquille with that late a POD, the party had been slowly but surely pissing away its establishment support in Quebec and Montreal.
All you need is to keep Sauve and the UN alive. The easiest way to do that is to kill Rene Levesque- without him the PQ will never become mainstream, therefore killing the chance of a nationalist split which helped doom the UN IOTL. They will eventually secularize the school system and a couple of major things, but the OTL welfare state will be 80% smaller. Eventually religiosity will taper off due to external forces, but it won't be almost a secular theocracy as is now the case. Neither of the two extremes IMO.
archaeogeek
Banned
Yes of course, we're a secular theocracy. I admire your use of the fallacious to make soundbites.An exaggeration, but the pendelum has swung a bit too far in the new direction as well IMO. I say this as a secularist, lest you think me some sort of ultramontanist.
Back OT: by 1970 you should see an implementation of the Rapport Parent, and probably language legislation equivalent to loi 22 by 1980. No Charte because their is no PQ, or if there is, not one capable of forming a government.
Back OT: by 1970 you should see an implementation of the Rapport Parent, and probably language legislation equivalent to loi 22 by 1980. No Charte because their is no PQ, or if there is, not one capable of forming a government.
They had the same policies as their Liberal predecessors (if you look at the '35 manifestos, agricultural subsidies are the only thing that differ in content rather than tone), except Duplessis was more involved in Church affairs than Taschereau.
And it's the involvement in Church affairs - and the ultramontane semi-fascist Québécois nationalism that went with being supported by the Church - that is a huge problem. The way I see it is to prevent the ALN from merging with les bleus, and thus have the ALN either remain with the PLQ or become a separate party that has, more or less, the same policies as OTL's UN. It would also help if Ontario, amongst others, continues to fight for provincial autonomy against the Feds, like what Québec did in the Quiet Revolution (and which it might do in TTL even earlier as well).
Meanwhile, the PCQ soon sees an influx of people who get influenced by the Freiburg school and, to a degree, the Frankfurt School, as well as believers in la démocratie chrétienne - les traditions européennes et américain-latine - et le distributisme - maybe even René Lévesque and Pierre Trudeau, if the POD is early enough - and the PCQ will change its character to be a mix of the modern-day ADQ, Red Tories, and German-style Christian Democrats. (Who knows, maybe in TTL it's the PCQ who leads forward the Quiet Revolution instead of the PLQ, and thus be TTL's version of the PQ.
)The problem is that it requires them not to be total noobish suckers. If you've seen the movie Duplessis (a must-see, even if his accent is ridiculously exaggerated, while Taschereau outdoes Parizeau in self-parodic elitism) you know of what I speak. There were a few who saw what was in store if they joined Duplessis, namely being forced into a renamed Conservative Party rather than a true coalition, but those people didn't have Gouin's ear. They were the first to be expelled from caucus by Duplessis, because they were dangerous.
Also: anyone who thought Duplessis was going to govern as a New Dealer and have his constitutional right as premier to name his Cabinet usurped by having a majority of them be ALNistes (which were the essentials of the supposed coalition deal) is clearly delusional and has no idea of who they're dealing with.
If the deal doesn't go through, then I suspect in 1935 Taschereau will still scrape through by voter fraud, but with a few more seats. If the ALN somehow wins power, which I doubt given their overtly left-wing platform in a very conservative province, it will be like the ADQ in 2007. In this case, do you really want to toss the hated incumbents, as corrupt and contemptuous of the voters and the law as they are, for a bunch of untested, politically naive noobs? Taschereau would eat them for breakfast without batting an eyelid. However with the opposition vote continuing to split I suspect the Liberals remain in power, or they try to ally with the Tories. There are no ideological differences, it is just that partisanship ran so high that you'd think Jack Layton was in a coalition with Stephen Harper.
Also: anyone who thought Duplessis was going to govern as a New Dealer and have his constitutional right as premier to name his Cabinet usurped by having a majority of them be ALNistes (which were the essentials of the supposed coalition deal) is clearly delusional and has no idea of who they're dealing with.
If the deal doesn't go through, then I suspect in 1935 Taschereau will still scrape through by voter fraud, but with a few more seats. If the ALN somehow wins power, which I doubt given their overtly left-wing platform in a very conservative province, it will be like the ADQ in 2007. In this case, do you really want to toss the hated incumbents, as corrupt and contemptuous of the voters and the law as they are, for a bunch of untested, politically naive noobs? Taschereau would eat them for breakfast without batting an eyelid. However with the opposition vote continuing to split I suspect the Liberals remain in power, or they try to ally with the Tories. There are no ideological differences, it is just that partisanship ran so high that you'd think Jack Layton was in a coalition with Stephen Harper.
Hendryk
Banned
It swung this far in the other direction because the change was delayed for so long. Delay it longer and it will be even more radical when it comes.
Quebec society lived in a bubble until the 1960s, and when the bubble burst it simply caught up with the Western societal consensus. I'm at a loss why anyone would want to delay that overdue process even further, except out of knee-jerk conservatism.
True - however, given Catholic social teaching - especially in the wake of Rerum Novarum and Quadragesimo Anno - it would be hard for the Church not to accept going in that direction in non-nationalistic areas (je suis désolée, le Chef
). Heck, if René doesn't get disillusioned by the whole process via that Radio-Canada strike, he could prove to be a very competent conservateur. On the nationalistic side, it should also be easy - don't have Henri Bourassa's career explode as a result of the Sentinelle affair (or at least find a way of avoiding the Sentinelle affair in the first place, in which case many Rhode Islanders and Bay Staters would give away multiple thank-yous ). Oh, and having Henri Bourassa acting a bit differently on conscription and "la question juive" during the 1930s (which could, theoretically, bring potential Jewish voters - and immigrant voters in general - to the bleus), even if it would be unpopular, would help out in the long run - a sufficient enough POD that should butterfly Duplessis from gaining the top spot and thus put someone more moderate in charge.That's the one based on the book by Conrad Black, right? Nope, haven't seen it.
Well, the way I see it, Duplessis is the big obstacle towards fulfilling the OP, since even if one didn't see what would happen amongst the ALN, ordinary Québécois would've known what they were getting themselves into - and hence, in both the context of the 1930s and in hindsight, it would be dangerous. If he can't be removed as PCQ party leader, then preventing the formation of the UN (which would happen anyway by butterflying him - even if there is a PCQ-ALN merger without Duplessis, it would not OTL's UN make) would also work. If he forms a Government, then his Government would essentially be a minority one that could at least be moderated to a degree (so long as he doesn't act like a 1930s-era Harper on things like proroguing the Legislative Assembly).
True - that's when not having Duplessis as PCQ party leader comes in handy.
Mais oui, bien sûr!
At some point, people would be tired of the PLQ and would go for someone that promises change - and, more importantly during the Depression, les jobs pour tous. (Along with an end to corruption and patronage, which always helps, no matter which party.) After all, "very conservative" in this case is only relative and which could probably be bent if it helps the PCQ to win power.Hmm, an interesting thought.
I agree.
It was really only a bubble if you lived outside of the Montréal, Québec City, Sherbrooke, and Trois-Rivières metro areas. Remember, the Church in Québec actively condemned urban life (and, in the 19th century, also railed against emigration southwards, primarily to New England) because it preferred the Québécois to be living in rural areas (where the Church pretty much had it easy). During the Duplessis years, this was much to the detriment of not only Francophones living in urban areas (which was becoming more common, at the expense of rural Québécois), but also to other minorities in urban areas, such as African-Canadians.
Hence, what I'm essentially suggesting with my ideas for the PCQ is not so much delaying the Quiet Revolution as it is having both small-c conservatism and the Quiet Revolution co-existing as like a quiet transition (thereby taking the name very literally), without all the involvement in Church affairs. You could call it a pragmatic small-c conservatism (aka "Purple Tories") if you want, but even that is better than nothing here.
To a degree, the American influence resulting from a Tascherau decision to invite American companies to move north could also help very greatly here - with no Sentinelle affair, no links would be broken between the Franco-Americans in New England and the Québécois and thus the "secularization" (again relative) of the Franco-Americans could therefore spread to the North. A lot of English loanwords in Québec French relating to things like industry, for example can be traced to American English (of the New England variety) due to the French-Canadian immigration south and the constant interplay between French-Canadians and Franco-Americans. The interplay would continue in this case - heck, if they wanted to, Québec-based companies could set up shop in the US as a logical extension of Tascherau's decision. Radio-Canada, for example (which would be good news for people like me who want to keep practicing French
), either on its own or as part of the educational/public broadcasting system in the US. At the same time, the continued contact between North and South in the form of both the interplay between Franco-Americans and Québécois on one hand and American companies moving north on the other, could help break that bubble (since almost any rural Québécois knew someone who lived in New England) and have some form of a positive effect, economically, socially, and culturally. And hence help with the OP - yes, Québec would still be a small-c conservative stronghold on one hand, but on the other hand this would moderated by not just delaying the Quiet Revolution but effectively co-opting it for the PCQ's ends.No, he just thinks anyone right of, say, Nixon is automatically a throwback.So you're not at a loss then
Hmm, I just came up with another idea - with the POD that I'm thinking of, maybe both the New England states and Québec decide to deliberately design their interstate highway systems as a way of making cross-border traffic easier than OTL. For example, OTL's Autoroute 35 could just as well have also been Autoroute 93 in TTL (after I-93 south of the border).