Realistic ways to lose Swiss neutrality

The Vulture

Banned
Alright, let's brainstorm a little. What realistic ways can we come up with that lead to Switzerland being heavily involved in foreign affairs and possibly even send military troops?

I would prefer this to be due to changes in Swiss internal politics rather than any great external influence like Operation Tannenbaum or the like.
 
I've always wondered where the Swiss would stand during a Red Europe scenario. Collaborating (somewhat) with the Nazis is one thing, but the Soviets are godless communists :)rolleyes: ;)). Switzerland in NATO? If the Swiss join early on, you could easily see Swiss troops in Korea, which might lead to a weaker professional military movement in the US and UK later on, as well as rebirth of the swiss-as-ubersoldiers meme.
 
Hitler goes stupid and attacks Swizerland. This would surely force the Swiss to abandon their neutrality and join the Allies.
 
Down the back of a really big sofa?

Perhaps a bit more realistically would be the same way Belgium, Danish and Norwegian neutrality were lost, by showing it didn't work. That either means getting the Kaiser or the Furher to invade, or even better both and then having the Soviets get unpleasant just over the border by (at least briefly) occupying Austria.
 
Hitler goes stupid and attacks Swizerland. This would surely force the Swiss to abandon their neutrality and join the Allies.

Actually, there would be an interesting scenario by which invading Switzerland would not be stupid, but well... slightly less stupid. Specifically, if France had extended the Magniot line to the North Sea, an invasion of France through Switzerland might see as a viable alternative. I think however that this would significantly worsen the overall course of WWII for Germany would make Germany lose WWII even quicker than OTL. :p
 
Someone attack them.

Probably have to be outright invading. I remember reading an incident in WW2 when the Germans sent a bunch of Bf-110s to go violate Swiss Neutrality for political purposes, and the Swiss shot them down with their 109s and then basically ignored it (though I guess there wasn't much else they could do given you know, Germany) and went back to neutrality.
 
How did the Soviets perceive Switzerland? Would they have respected Swiss neutrality even minimally in the event of a World War III?

Getting back to the OP, perhaps have there be a greater perceived fear of the Soviets, as has been suggested above.
 
Maybe the Nazis get fed up with the criticism in the Swiss press and carry out their threat to 'do something about it'. In @ the Swiss essentially told the Nazis to 'come and have a go if you think you are hard enough'.

While the Swiss were politically neutral, apart from the bankers, they were fairly pro-Allied. The difference between how Allied and Luftwaffe aircraft which violated Swiss airspace illustrates this - the Allies were told they were over Switzerland and how they could quickly leave, the Luftwaffe were shot full of holes by Swiss fighters and AA guns.

In a WW3 scenario the Soviets would probably at least taken out Berne and Geneva, plus maybe a few military airfields. In a conventional, scenario, however, they'd probably ignore Switzerland unless it was convenient to pass through its territory, or airspace.
 
While the Swiss were politically neutral, apart from the bankers, they were fairly pro-Allied. The difference between how Allied and Luftwaffe aircraft which violated Swiss airspace illustrates this - the Allies were told they were over Switzerland and how they could quickly leave, the Luftwaffe were shot full of holes by Swiss fighters and AA guns.
Didn't the allies sent far more bombers, though? Intercepting Me-110s with Bf109s is one thing. Intercepting B-17s with those same, not easily replaceables, Bf109s it's a whole different thing, though.
 
It was the attitude, the Swiss AA guns could have fired on. The Swiss even accepted with good grace an American apology when the 8th AF bombed them. Even those bombed were quite prepared to forgive the accident.

I'd recommend the book Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War II by Stephen P. Halbrook. Changed my attitude to the Swiss in WW2.
The fact that the Nazis absolutely loathed the Swiss (calling them 'Berg-Semiten/Mountain Jews') and it was returned. Interestingly the Swiss even smuggled bomb sights used by the RAF through Germany disguised as Swiss watches.

I'm not going to defend their bankers, or those who traded with the Nazis, but Switzerland was in a difficult position for most of the war, surrounded by hostile dictatorships as it was.
The Swiss Army would have fought very hard and constitutionally the Swiss government could not order it to surrender. In fact any such order was to be regarded as being given under duress. So even if the Nazis conquer Switzerland (probably at a very high cost) they'd face continued resistance, probably for years.
 
Well, one (heavily contrived;)) scenario of mine would be that the Allies don't block the Voralberg vote and Voralberg joins the Confederation over the objections of Austria and inner Swiss concerns. Nothing happens at first, but it acts as a "national insult" to Austria's right-wing. Later, said right-wingers, via the Nazis or by themselves in an Austrian Civil War scenario attack. Switzerland gets dragged into a war over the annexation and probably loses the short term, leading to a resistance against occupation. After being liberated, Switzerland sees that neutrality doesn't work and ends up in the Western camp, although a few factions will see the interference in Austrian affairs as a reason for it and push even harder to isolate themselves as well. Fun times.

Maybe the Nazis get fed up with the criticism in the Swiss press and carry out their threat to 'do something about it'. In @ the Swiss essentially told the Nazis to 'come and have a go if you think you are hard enough'.
Unlikely. As has been stated before in similar threads, Switzerland was more preserved because it was fairly useful to the Axis as a neutral and that value's lost in the case of an invasion. Granted, logic has never been the Nazi's strong suit, so it's still possible. And Qianlong's scenario would actually make sense and be a very interesting timeline.

While the Swiss were politically neutral, apart from the bankers, they were fairly pro-Allied. The difference between how Allied and Luftwaffe aircraft which violated Swiss airspace illustrates this - the Allies were told they were over Switzerland and how they could quickly leave, the Luftwaffe were shot full of holes by Swiss fighters and AA guns.
"Work six days a week for a German victory, pray on Sunday for a British one" the old saying was.

Although it's worth pointing out that Switzerland had at least a few air clashes with the Allies as well. Particularly after a bombing of Zurich(whether that was completely accidental or not is up for debate. I've found sources which contradict each other on that.)

In a WW3 scenario the Soviets would probably at least taken out Berne and Geneva, plus maybe a few military airfields. In a conventional, scenario, however, they'd probably ignore Switzerland unless it was convenient to pass through its territory, or airspace.
Pretty much. Swiss strategy for the Cold War essentially boiled down to "keep your head down and hope nobody remembers we're here." At least in the case of a nuclear war, anyway. I'd probably liken the unofficial position to that of Scandanavia, though. Officially neutral, but if the chips are down and they're under threat, far more likely to side with NATO.

It was the attitude, the Swiss AA guns could have fired on. The Swiss even accepted with good grace an American apology when the 8th AF bombed them. Even those bombed were quite prepared to forgive the accident.

I'd recommend the book Target Switzerland: Swiss Armed Neutrality in World War II by Stephen P. Halbrook. Changed my attitude to the Swiss in WW2.
The fact that the Nazis absolutely loathed the Swiss (calling them 'Berg-Semiten/Mountain Jews') and it was returned. Interestingly the Swiss even smuggled bomb sights used by the RAF through Germany disguised as Swiss watches.
Hmm, now this is new. Never heard of that book, will need to check it out. I have also never heard of this "Mountain Jews" idea(isn't Berg "city" in english?)

I'm not going to defend their bankers, or those who traded with the Nazis, but Switzerland was in a difficult position for most of the war, surrounded by hostile dictatorships as it was.
The Swiss Army would have fought very hard and constitutionally the Swiss government could not order it to surrender. In fact any such order was to be regarded as being given under duress. So even if the Nazis conquer Switzerland (probably at a very high cost) they'd face continued resistance, probably for years.
While I can see continued resistance, I think the "unending guerilla war" myth is overstated. I think a lot depends on the situation at the time, especially considerations like how the Germans handle occupation. Yes, the redoubt plan means the military's out in the mountains to resist, and the population is well-armed and not exactly fond of Nazis, but the majority of the population is still in the Lowlands, which are quite a bit easier to occupy. Not to mention, ammo is limited and Switzerland's military was at least a few years behind most of Europe in terms of equipment. As I said, how long that guerilla war goes on, how the Nazis deal with it, and what the international situation is will greatly alter how the occupation goes. Norway might be a better analogue than Yugoslavia here.
 
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How's this for losing Swiss Neutrality in WWI. Germany doesnt surrender in November 1918. The Allies push the Germans back the Rhine but fail to cross. Haig formulates a plan. Invade Germany from the South, through the defeated Austria. but he calculates that he cant get enough troops through quickly enough just through Austria so, lunatic that he is, he sends his west flank through Switzerland, hoping, the way Germans did in Belgium in 1914, that the Swiss jsut let them pass. But the Swiss ,of course, resist, are crushed and end up an occupied country
 
How's this for losing Swiss Neutrality in WWI. Germany doesnt surrender in November 1918. The Allies push the Germans back the Rhine but fail to cross. Haig formulates a plan. Invade Germany from the South, through the defeated Austria. but he calculates that he cant get enough troops through quickly enough just through Austria so, lunatic that he is, he sends his west flank through Switzerland, hoping, the way Germans did in Belgium in 1914, that the Swiss jsut let them pass. But the Swiss ,of course, resist, are crushed and end up an occupied country

It was one very big stupid idea of Haig because, in november 1918, Entente troops from the Armée d'Orient was very close to the heart of Hungary.

It had crossed the Danube and ready to enter the heartland of Hungary.

In the same month, the eastern wing of this army was ready to liberate Rumania from the Central Powers troops. In december 1918, french troops were in Bucarest...
 

archaeogeek

Banned
Hmm, now this is new. Never heard of that book, will need to check it out. I have also never heard of this "Mountain Jews" idea(isn't Berg "city" in english?)

The sole source for this expression is Target Switzerland.
 
During the Ardennes campaign, Stalin half-jokingly suggested to Churchill and Roosevelt that they should outflank the German army by invading through Switzerland.
 

Cook

Banned
During the diplomatic crisis of August 1914 the Chief of the Swiss General Staff agreed to a treaty with Moltke, Chief of the German General Staff. The thready would have ‘put all Swiss armed forces under the control of the German High Command.’ He of course had no authority to arrange such an alliance and the Swiss government killed off any further thoughts of a treaty as soon as they found out about it, but it makes you wonder.

I came across it in Clive Ponting’s Thirteen Days: Diplomacy and Disaster, the countdown to the Great War.
 
There's a great book on the modern Swiss Armed Forces called La Place de la Concorde Suisse (It's in English, not French). It might give some ideas.
 
It was one very big stupid idea of Haig because, in november 1918, Entente troops from the Armée d'Orient was very close to the heart of Hungary.

It had crossed the Danube and ready to enter the heartland of Hungary.

In the same month, the eastern wing of this army was ready to liberate Rumania from the Central Powers troops. In december 1918, french troops were in Bucarest...

Did Haig ever have any ideas that weren't stupid? But much of the time people listened to Haig's stupid ideas
 
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