Question

[Tielhard]

Can someone explain to me why it is acceptable to have an ATL where the CSA survives and perpetrates slavery but that an ATL where the Nazis triumph and rid the world of Jews, Gypsies and others is not.

It seems to me that either both are acceptable or both are unacceptable. To accept the former and not the latter implies that the suffering of blacks under slavery is less than that of the Jews, Gypsies and other under the Nazis. Thi

[Nicole]

Originally Posted by Tielhard

Can someone explain to me why it is acceptable to have an ATL where the CSA survives and perpetrates slavery but that an ATL where the Nazis triumph and rid the world of Jews, Gypsies and others is not.

I don't see your point, I have to admit. There are many "Nazis Win" AHs out there...

It seems to me that either both are acceptable or both are unacceptable. To accept the former and not the latter implies that the suffering of blacks under slavery is less than that of the Jews, Gypsies and other under the Nazis. Thi

Well, I have to say that while both are abhorent, being a slave can be argued to being better than being simply dead...

[MrP]

Originally Posted by Tielhard

Can someone explain to me why it is acceptable to have an ATL where the CSA survives and perpetrates slavery but that an ATL where the Nazis triumph and rid the world of Jews, Gypsies and others is not.

It seems to me that either both are acceptable or both are unacceptable. To accept the former and not the latter implies that the suffering of blacks under slavery is less than that of the Jews, Gypsies and other under the Nazis. Thi

But they're both fictional, Tielhard.

Moreover, as Imajin says, "While there's life there's hope." Not much life left in Slavic or Jewish circles if the Nazis win.

[Tielhard]

You both seem to be implying that the holocausts are greater evils than slavery in the USA which I find suprising.

On the question I wanted answering. From you answers I am not sure that I have explained myself properly, I may have another go later. Thank you both for your help.

[MrP]

Originally Posted by Tielhard

You both seem to be implying that the holocausts are greater evils than slavery in the USA which I find suprising.

On the question I wanted answering. From you answers I am not sure that I have explained myself properly, I may have another go later. Thank you both for your help.

Holocaust = several million people killed over a period of less than a decade
Slavery = several million people held in bondage for many many decades

Holocaust = almost invariably led to a painful death for victims (Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, blacks, Slavs, &c). Freedom was highly unlikely.
Slavery = frequently led to the splitting up of families and brutalisation of slaves by aggressive masters. However, slaves could be freed and benevolent masters did exist.

I wouldn't have wanted to be black in America during the one era, and I wouldn't have wanted to be Jewish in Germany during the other era. But forced to choose between the two, I'll go for America, since if you get a bad master you're as doomed as an inmate of a concentration camp, and if you get a good one, you'll probably still have a hard life, but rather better than in a concentration camp.

It could be I'm letting my opinions and perceptions colour this. I'm rather keen to be given direction, so slavery comes across as more appealing than being gassed. Living I can try to escape, even if I fail. Dead or starved close to it, I'm just stuck. Plus, in an escape attempt, I fancy my chances better in a society with single shot muskets, horses and one or two railroads rather than one with MG42s, countless vehicles and lots of roads, railways and the like.

I guess, in short you could say that slavery was the greater evil, since it blighted more lives. However, the Holocaust was a much more concentrated period of evil, and so seems greater.

[Glen]

Originally Posted by Tielhard

Can someone explain to me why it is acceptable to have an ATL where the CSA survives and perpetrates slavery but that an ATL where the Nazis triumph and rid the world of Jews, Gypsies and others is not.

It seems to me that either both are acceptable or both are unacceptable. To accept the former and not the latter implies that the suffering of blacks under slavery is less than that of the Jews, Gypsies and other under the Nazis. Thi

Who said either of those ATLs are 'acceptable'?

I think that perhaps you are referring to the romanticism many timelines show for the Antebellum South, and the expression of such in ATLs where the CSA survives. In the more 'utopian' ones, they seem to manage to find a way to get the CSA to abandon Slavery early on. Unfortunately, there are a minority of Racist ATLs that find a Slave-holding CSA 'utopian'.


Similar things can be posited for most of the 'Third Reich' ATLs, though most of them tend towards a Nazi dystopia from my perusal. Again, the ones that seem better often have the military deposing most of the true Nazis and an end to their insane racist practices. But again also, there are a minority of ATLs that are Racist that pine for a 'Thousand Year Reich' that is still very much the Nazi State Hitler envisioned.

For the record, racism, slavery, and genocide are all deplorable, period, end of quote. You can write about deplorable things in fiction, but it should always be kept in mind that in r/l, these things are evils to be fought at every turn. Their victory in fiction for effect happens, but should never be an endorsement for their support in the real world.