Ottoman Empire with regards to Oil

So here's the question: What if oil was first used for automobiles decades earlier? Say, maybe 1880 or 1890. What if the first tanks were built before 1910? How would this early utilization affect the Ottoman empire? Would it no longer be the "sick man of Europe," or would it empower individual regions to split? How would it affect the future state of the middle east?

That's a little more than one question, but it's all pretty much related.

While I must agree, what if it was? In this alternate history, they did.

If they could keep control of their lands, they'd most definitely become a superpower, or at least a very, very rich nation.

yourtowndrunk said:

If they could keep control of their lands, they'd most definitely become a superpower, or at least a very, very rich nation.

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That's what I can't decide. Will the government be powerful enough to stay together? Or will the regions become wealthy enough for Independence? Oman/Yemen, U.A.E, and Kuwait come to mind.

If the Empire can stay together and fully utilise the oil and its benefits, yes it could be used to reverse the decline. However, I'm more inclined to believe that if oil is discovered and becomes available the great powers will become involved. Britain, France etc. will attempt to undermine Ottoman control in those areas and support local independence and seperatist movements in exchange for bountiful trade and extraction rights. Maybe an earlier Gulf War in the making? Russia will most certainly try and get involved.

Direwolf22 said:

If the Empire can stay together and fully utilise the oil and its benefits, yes it could be used to reverse the decline. However, I'm more inclined to believe that if oil is discovered and becomes available the great powers will become involved. Britain, France etc. will attempt to undermine Ottoman control in those areas and support local independence and seperatist movements in exchange for bountiful trade and extraction rights. Maybe an earlier Gulf War in the making? Russia will most certainly try and get involved.

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Russia I see trying to get involved against the Ottomans. However the French, and to a lesser extent the British, had significant investment in the Empire and would probably prefer keep a strong trader partner around. I forsee a relation like the US and Saudi Arabia today.

Beedok said:

Russia I see trying to get involved against the Ottomans. However the French, and to a lesser extent the British, had significant investment in the Empire and would probably prefer keep a strong trader partner around. I forsee a relation like the US and Saudi Arabia today.

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Now that would be epic. Instead of Britain chopping up the Ottomans, they'd be helping them fight off the Russians to the north and keep stable for the profits. Petrodollars ftw!

I agree, they'd probably keep the ottomans safe from Russia, who were clearly the greater threat, and would be an even greater one, given the circumstances. they too would already have oil in the Caucuses, and eventually Siberia.

Has everybody forgotten to mention Germany?

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

Delvestius said:

That's what I can't decide. Will the government be powerful enough to stay together? Or will the regions become wealthy enough for Independence? Oman/Yemen, U.A.E, and Kuwait come to mind.

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It's actually quite easy to make the empire to stick together with PoD as late as 20th century. Arab Nationalism only caught the muslims with the absence of Caliphate and the presence of European colonialism in Middle East. Before that, it was pretty much exclusively Christian thing.

However, with just having Ottoman Empire doesn't enter the wrong side/ doesn't enter WWI is not a good choice to make it a super power. Sure, unlike the Saudi the Ottomans actually had agriculture and all but it was also totally agriculture-based economy, and to industrialize would take a good while. A better PoD would be Russo-Ottoman War of 1877-78 where you can make Ottomans winning it instead of Russian. By the time of the war the empire was in the state of Proto Industrial, but the war destroyed it by having the Balkans wrecked. Prevent it, and Ottoman Empire will be more than just a very rich key power in global affairs by earlier half of 20th century.

yourtowndrunk said:

Petrodollars ftw!

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Petrodollars? Surely you mean Petroliras.

Ridwan Asher said:

It's actually quite easy to make the empire to stick together with PoD as late as 20th century. Arab Nationalism only caught the muslims with the absence of Caliphate and the presence of European colonialism in Middle East. Before that, it was pretty much exclusively Christian thing.

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Actually, Arab Nationalism emerges in many factors, first as you said the absence or the weakening of the Caliphate, that's correct 'cause Arabs see to themselves that they can be an independent from the Turks and can set-up their own nation despite of the linguistic or even cultural differences between each Arab areas. Second is the European presence in the ME, it was a factor also but the biggest reason is the influx of the Jews in the Palestine starting in 1900 due to the Zionist promises, Pogrom in Russia and later, Holocaust in Europe.

However, with just having Ottoman Empire doesn't enter the wrong side/ doesn't enter WWI is not a good choice to make it a super power. Sure, unlike the Saudi the Ottomans actually had agriculture and all but it was also totally agriculture-based economy, and to industrialize would take a good while. A better PoD would be Russo-Ottoman War of 1877-78 where you can make Ottomans winning it instead of Russian. By the time of the war the empire was in the state of Proto Industrial, but the war destroyed it by having the Balkans wrecked. Prevent it, and Ottoman Empire will be more than just a very rich key power in global affairs by earlier half of 20th century.

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The Ottoman Empire can survive now if they keep neutral during the WWI or preventing the WWI to happened at all and accommodates the British Empire and French Empire and the German Empire. With the influx of British, French, and German investments, earlier oil drill will be possible and more money for the Ottomans to modernize its economic infrastructure (unlike the Arab countries right now who are just distributing the Petrodollars to their friends even funding the Islamic extremists). The result is the full modernization or even democratization of the Ottoman Empire. Ottoman Empire later will be integrated to the European Union.

Simon said:

Petrodollars? Surely you mean Petroliras.

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Petropound because the Pound was the reserve currency at the eve of WWI. Without WWI, pound will remain the world's reserve currency. Ottomans are wise in spending the oil money unlike the Arab countries right now that the petrodollars was being used to fund the Islamic extremists to make bomb attacks in Europe and North America.

Same thing as the Italians and Libyan oil and French and Algerian oil threads, they would need foreign expertise and technology to be able to profit from it.

yourworstnightmare said:

Same thing as the Italians and Libyan oil and French and Algerian oil threads, they would need foreign expertise and technology to be able to profit from it.

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That's another story, if we butterfly away the WWI, Algerian oil will be drilled by the French, Libyan oil will be drilled by the Italians, Arab oil will be drilled by the Germans, Persian oil will be drilled by the British, Russian oil will be drilled of course by the Russians, Falkland oil will be drilled by the British/Argentines, Mexican or Venezuelan oil will be drilled by the Americans. More oil drilling around the world means more European and American money inflow to the developing nations which means a better world.

Acctually I suspect we'll see Americans drilling oil in Algeria and Libya, since france and italy would need their expertise, at least at first.

yourworstnightmare said:

Acctually I suspect we'll see Americans drilling oil in Algeria and Libya, since france and italy would need their expertise, at least at first.

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Or maybe everywhere in the world where oil reserves is available. America was an emerging power and needs oil to support its growth because of low population density in relation to Europe means more space for cars that is why George W. Bush was correct when he says:

AMERICA IS ADDICTED TO OIL!

And since all European countries were rivals, inviting the Americans to help would always seem the least threatening solution.

Up until World War I though, there would be no real reason for Europe to invite America to drill in the middle east/Ottoman lands. It is only after The Great War did America become a legitamte power.