WI: US went Beyond Lend-Lease in assisting the Soviets?

[TxCoatl1970]

It's ASB for several reasons: US and UK politics and logisitical reasons in sending and keeping enough boots on the ground to make much of a difference on the eastern front, Stalin's paranoia, etc.
My question is, IF the WAllies, especially the US and UK/Indian/ANZACs
could put boots on the ground in large numbers in Archangel or more plausibly through Iran to assist the Soviets in booting out the Nazis, what butterflies would be unleashed if that happened from 1942-1945?
The Soviets, understandably, felt like the US was nice in sending lots of food, fuel, locomotives and trucks, but let them take all the casualties in forcing the Germans back west. If Americans, British and others died right in front of them helping to liberate their country, would the Cold War have resulted in the same way as OTL?

[usertron2020]

Originally Posted by TxCoatl1970

It's ASB for several reasons: US and UK politics and logisitical reasons in sending and keeping enough boots on the ground to make much of a difference on the eastern front, Stalin's paranoia, etc.
My question is, IF the WAllies, especially the US and UK/Indian/ANZACs
could put boots on the ground in large numbers in Archangel or more plausibly through Iran to assist the Soviets in booting out the Nazis, what butterflies would be unleashed if that happened from 1942-1945?
The Soviets, understandably, felt like the US was nice in sending lots of food, fuel, locomotives and trucks, but let them take all the casualties in forcing the Germans back west. If Americans, British and others died right in front of them helping to liberate their country, would the Cold War have resulted in the same way as OTL?

ASB. The rail gauges in Russia would prevent allied troops from using the Soviet network. Also, the rail routes go a LONG way around from northwest Iran to Armenia to Southern Azerbajan thru Baku and then up northwest again till finally you're heading in a general direction towards the Germans. Besides, the Soviets needed those railroads to send up their oil supplies.

[Life In Black]

The only way I could see the Western Allies sending actual combat troops to Russia would be if the Germans were more successful in Russia (borderline ASB) and the US decided that fortress Europe was too tough a nut to crack right away, going after Japan first. The Soviet Union in OTL moved much of its factories and industrial strength east of the Urals anyway, so having the government relocate and a new defensive perimeter formed along the mountains isn't farfetched. By this point I would think launching an invasion through France might be too diffecult, resulting in WAllied forces helping the Soviets break the stalemate. This would however require most of the WAllies equipment be transported along the Trans-Siberian railway. Or I could be way off...

[Mr Qwerty]

I strongly suspect the Soviets wouldn't want allied troops on their soil, and would refuse any such offers. I remember an incident in which the Soviets allowed the Luftwaffe to attack American bombers that had landed on a Soviet airfield.

[Dathi THorfinnsson]

Originally Posted by Mr Qwerty

I strongly suspect the Soviets wouldn't want allied troops on their soil, and would refuse any such offers.

Indeed. The US repeatedly offered to fly bombers out of Russia, and were repeatedly refused.

British mariners who had undergone huge hardship to get Lend-Lease supplies into Murmansk were treated like garbage.

etc.

Stalin would have had to be facing the extinction of the USSR before he'd allow more than a token WAlly force on his soil.

[Blackfox5]

Stalin didn't want any forces on Soviet soil that he could not control. He briefly considered the possibility of using available British troops in the north in 1941 and in the Caucasus in 1942 if the Axis were more successful. But each crisis passed, and he decided he didn't need them. Not only would it allow foreigners to see how the Soviet people truly lived, he was paranoid that contact with Westerners would galvanize resistance to his rule. Stalin made it a point to purge people who spent any amount of time in contact with Westerners.

What Stalin wanted was a second front - fighting elsewhere that would draw away a lot of German troops. He wasn't entirely happy that the Allies picked North Africa in 1942 and Italy in 1943 over France, but he understood the reasons why they happened and saw how they did help the situation on the Eastern Front somewhat.

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Indeed. The US repeatedly offered to fly bombers out of Russia, and were repeatedly refused.

That's not true. Wallies did fly bombers from SU. i think they flew from somewhere in Med, bombed southern Europe, leanded in SU, reloaded and flew in opposite direction. There was a base around Poltava, which was bombed by LW as germans trailed Wallied bombers and learned of location.

What you probably had in mind was soviet refusal to allow such flights in aid of 1944 warsaw uprising.

[Life In Black]

The Soviets also "interned" American bombers, returning the crews while hanging onto the planes.

[Don Lardo]

Originally Posted by aktarian

That's not true.

You're both correct in a pedantic sense and utterly wrong in a general sense.

Stalin did allow all of seven USAAF shuttle bombing missions between June and September of 1944 which was a pittance in the grand scheme of things. While Stalin allowed USAAF long range fighter escorts to operate out of the Soviet fields, he denied requests for USAAF fighter defenses for the fields and provided little in the way of Soviet defenses either.

Stalin also allowed the RAF to operate out of Murmansk for a few months in 1941.

When you consider what WAllie heavy bombers could have done against Nazi targets in eastern Europe if given access to Soviet bases and what WAllie air and naval forces based in the Kola Peninsula could have done for the Murmansk convoys, Stalin's constantly refusal to host WAllie military units on Soviet soil is entirely indicative of that psychopathic, mass murdering, rat bastard.

And pointing to the handful of shuttle bombing missions which were allowed after years of WAllie requests smacks of apologia for him.

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by Don Lardo

You're both correct in a pedantic sense and utterly wrong in a general sense.

Stalin did allow all of seven USAAF shuttle bombing missions between June and September of 1944 which was a pittance in the grand scheme of things. While Stalin allowed USAAF long range fighter escorts to operate out of the Soviet fields, he denied requests for USAAF fighter defenses for the fields and provided little in the way of Soviet defenses either.

Stalin also allowed the RAF to operate out of Murmansk for a few months in 1941.

When you consider what WAllie heavy bombers could have done against Nazi targets in eastern Europe if given access to Soviet bases and what WAllie air and naval forces based in the Kola Peninsula could have done for the Murmansk convoys, Stalin's constantly refusal to host WAllie military units on Soviet soil is entirely indicative of that psychopathic, mass murdering, rat bastard.

And pointing to the handful of shuttle bombing missions which were allowed after years of WAllie requests smacks of apologia for him.

Hmm, I wasn't aware there were so few missions. I was aware they did happen, just thought it was a regular thing

[Life In Black]

Stalin hated the Western Allies, only wanting them to take some of the pressure off of him. Which is why I said it would take a major event to shake the Soviets into allowing WAllies to base troops inside the SU. Having the Germans make it to the Urals might be enough to shake them into allowing US/UK troops to operate from Russia.

[Wyragen-TXRG4P]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

Indeed. The US repeatedly offered to fly bombers out of Russia, and were repeatedly refused.

Wasn´t that mainly against Japanese in China?

[Uriel]

IIRC Churchill wrote in his history of the war that Stalin (early in the war I think) proposed that the British send a BEF to Russia just like they did with France in the 1st WWar.

Might (from a military POV) make seens in 1941 / 1942 when Germany came close to wining but not so much later.
There would be to much problems: language, supply, unified High Command, climate ...
Even if the WAllies don't dare a landing in France they could still make better use of their troops in the Mediterrane.

And I wouldn't expect thankfulness. The way history changed under Stalin inspired 1984.

[usertron2020]

I'm not expecting people on this thread to know this, but I forgot myself why this is ASB. Throughout the SU's involvement in WWII, if an Allied airman came down in Soviet controlled territory under circumstances where his actual whereabouts were unknown to the West? Then he could be expected to be bundled up and sent to Siberia for biological warfare experiments! Cold War hogwash? A few weeks before he died Stalin wrote down a memo ordering the liquidation of all surviving allied prisoners. That memo is now a centerpiece at the Lubyanka Museum.

No, no Allied personnel in Russia of any number and length of time as long as "Uncle Joe" is alive.

[Tovarich]

Originally Posted by Dathi THorfinnsson

British mariners who had undergone huge hardship to get Lend-Lease supplies into Murmansk were treated like garbage.

Sadly, that's also the treatment handed out to them by their own government, who not only forbade acceptance of medals to crew from the USSR (unlike those awarded to British servicemen by France or the US) but refused creation of any kind of campaign medal itself, and still does.
(So far, the Russians have awarded 3 to the crews, in 1985, '95, and 2005)

[Paul Spring]

I've read that there was brief consideration of sending up to 12 or 15 UK/Commonwealth divisions via Archangel, and also possibly a mixed US/UK/Commonwealth force of unspecified size via Iran. It's very unlikely, though, due both to Stalin's extreme paranoia about having forces not completely under his control fighting alongside Soviet forces, and also of course because I'm pretty sure that it would have been a logistical nightmare to supply them.