Analogues of Godwin's Law

[tom]

How many ATLs with PoDs far enough back to butterfly the Nazis have analogues of Godwin's Law? I don't mean several past tyrants which are regarded as nasty...like Nero, Attila and Gengis Khan. I mean ONE historical figure who makes EVERYBODY's skin crawl. I mean, judging by time travel stories, you can go back 1000 years or a billion, seeze or stop the Chixculub meteor, and when you return to the present the only change is that the Axis won WWII. Never the Soviet's, the Confederacy, the Aztecs or anything else. So do most TLs have a few baddies, or one uberbaddie?

[carlton_bach]

Not every TL will have a situation that allows for a Hitler-analog to rise, do the damage he did, and become the slain-dragon foiundation myth of the two military superpowers that dominated the world after him. It's pretty unique (and you will note that while Hitler is nowhere an unemotional topic, he's certainly less charged and absolute in parts of the world where the ecvil bastards were the Japanese (or the Allies as colonial overlords). It's not enough to just kill millions of people to be an alt-hitler.

that said, every TL is liable to have some epic villain whjose name is invoked in discussions of political crime or atrocities. Mind, these often tend to be geographically limited example. The charge of being "a second Gessler" or "red-handed as Huangdi" may mean as little to the aerage American as that of being a "Benedict Arnold" would to a Swiss or Chinese. Some re likely to be common among the educated classes (as long as a remotely European analogue culture exists, likely Nero, Caligula, Commodus, Attila and Genghis Khan). But they won't be as central.

So, Godwin is owed to a fairly unlikely historical constellation.

[Emperor Qianlong]

Well, if we consider how unlikely Hitler was to rise to power in OTL (I mean, he started out prettymuch as a nobody), we have not the slightest idea who (under the right... or should I better say "wrong") conditions could rise to power and pull something similar. Said person could not even be born in OTL.

[SavoyTruffle]

As far as my alt-hist philosophy goes, the farther back the POD the more unrecognizable a world is, so if say you have Charles V dying earlier then the butterflies mean that a German fascist would strive for supremacy in the mid-20th century.

In fact, you may not get fascism in said TL.

[lord caedus]

I'd probably say TL-191 would have a Godwin's law for invoking the Freedom Party or Featherston for most of the western world (unless you're an ex-Confederate, since the only reason a lot of them seem to dislike Featherston is that he lost the WWII analogue)

[mrmandias]

In 19th Century America, the go-to villain was the Tsar (not one specific Tsar).

People are always going to look for a short-hand way of epitomizing political evil.

[SavoyTruffle]

Originally Posted by mrmandias

In 19th Century America, the go-to villain was the Tsar (not one specific Tsar).

People are always going to look for a short-hand way of epitomizing political evil.

And if you were a 16th century Protestant, then it would be either the Pope, the Emperor, or the King of Spain (and for much of said century the latter two were the same person).

[aktarian]

What separates Hitler from other baddies is that he was completly beaten and Germany made a complete break with him.

Take any other baddie from history that people generally consider evil and you'll have somebody say something nice about them. Even other major Axis powers didn't make such complete break with their WW2 past so their then leaders get a break or two ("Generally bad, but....").

And further back you go the more likely *shrug*"Times and attitudes were different back then" becomes. Genghis Khan would be close to Hitler but people don't get same emotional response from him. And maybe find a positive thing or two to say about him.

So ATLs are unlikely to have one uberbadie but several badies of lčesser degree and some may think them as badies while others as best thing since sliced bread (or ATL varsion of it)

[tom]

One commentator I read claims the Nazis are so loathed because they killed their millions with panache. They even had such things as skulls on their uniforms. Any validity to this?

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by tom

One commentator I read claims the Nazis are so loathed because they killed their millions with panache.

As oppsoed to any other country determined to destroy some toher group?

Originally Posted by tom

They even had such things as skulls on their uniforms. Any validity to this?

So did Prussian cavalry......

[Bakelite Punk]

so did British cavalry.

[Mr Qwerty]

Originally Posted by aktarian

What separates Hitler from other baddies is that he was completly beaten and Germany made a complete break with him.

Take any other baddie from history that people generally consider evil and you'll have somebody say something nice about them. Even other major Axis powers didn't make such complete break with their WW2 past so their then leaders get a break or two ("Generally bad, but....").

And further back you go the more likely *shrug*"Times and attitudes were different back then" becomes. Genghis Khan would be close to Hitler but people don't get same emotional response from him. And maybe find a positive thing or two to say about him.

So ATLs are unlikely to have one uberbadie but several baddies of lesser degree and some may think them as badies while others as best thing since sliced bread (or ATL varsion of it)

I think you hit the nail on its proverbial head. Stalin is, I understand, fairly popular in Russia. Mussolini's family is still prominent in Italian politics. Mao's state is still standing. Hitler? Only despised fringe nuts don't hate him.

Alexander the Great killed more people than anybody before him; who remembers him for that? Besides AH'ers, of course. Genghis Khan is cool (never mind the conquests he started killed at least a third of the people in the entire world). I wonder what people in Afghanistan or Uzbekistan think of Timur?

[DuQuense]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law -- For those of us who had no idea what the Law was.

The problem [Horror?] with the Nazis/Holocaust is the ordinary Job aspect.
Get up - Have breakfast - Take your lunch - Kiss Wife goodbye - Go to work - Push several hundred people in the ovens - Have lunch - Go back to work - Push several Hundred people in the oven -
Go Home - Kiss Wife - Have Dinner - Get up next morning - Repeat

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by DuQuense

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law -- For those of us who had no idea what the Law was.

The problem [Horror?] with the Nazis/Holocaust is the ordinary Job aspect.
Get up - Have breakfast - Take your lunch - Kiss Wife goodbye - Go to work - Push several hundred people in the ovens - Have lunch - Go back to work - Push several Hundred people in the oven -
Go Home - Kiss Wife - Have Dinner - Get up next morning - Repeat

Which only became a problem because Germany lost so completly (see any other genocide where genociders didn't loose so badly)

[John Fredrick Parker]

Which only became a problem because Germany lost so completly (see any other genocide where genociders didn't loose so badly)

Ottomans in WWI come to mind (though Armenian Genocide deniers are a lot more respectable, for some reason...)

[Cuāuhtemōc]

Originally Posted by John Fredrick Parker

Ottomans in WWI come to mind (though Armenian Genocide deniers are a lot more respectable, for some reason...)

Because admit it or not, the Ottomans didn't really want to exterminate the Armenians; it was a forced transportation apparently.

As much of an Ottoman-wanker I am, I do think the event happened.

[aktarian]

Originally Posted by John Fredrick Parker

Ottomans in WWI come to mind (though Armenian Genocide deniers are a lot more respectable, for some reason...)

Ottomans didn't loose as badly as Germany did. Germany was occupied, divided and dismantled. ottomansless so.

Plus it wasn't a genocide.

[Van555]

Originally Posted by John Fredrick Parker

Ottomans in WWI come to mind (though Armenian Genocide deniers are a lot more respectable, for some reason...)

Oh god, what have you done.....