English-Danish Union in 1730

[Valdemar II]

Based on the British Scandinavia thread and my comment in it

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

It's not that hard you just need to have a male child of Prince-Consort George of Denmark and Queen Anne of England survive to adulthood, afterward if we arrange a accident for Christian VI before 1723 Georges offsprings are the nearest heir to the kingdom of Denmark-Norway, the duchies of Schleswig-Holstein and the county of Oldenburg when Frederik IV dies in 1730.

So let's say that William, Duke of Gloucester, son of Queen Anne of England and George of Denmark are healthier and survive to adulthood and produce a few sons of his owns. After his cousin Frederik IV dies he inheriate the Danish throne in 1730. OTL Christian VI dies in 1722 before the conception of his first son. So we have 8 year when William (likely Wilhelm in Denmark) are herediaty prince to the Danish crown

But what difference will we see in European politic and warfare in the periode from his death in OTL until he inheriate the Danish throne, who are a likely marriage partner for him, how will it affect England, Scotland and Ireland that there are no Act of Settlement, how will it effect the Great Northen War that a member of the Oldenburg dynasty sit on the English throne?

In OTL Hanover got Bremen from Denmark (which had occupied in since 1712) in 1715 for entering the war and recognise the Danish claim to Schleswig-Gottorp. But it's doubtful that Denmark would have seen a need for that if George I hadn't been such a powerful prince with position as King of UK too.

The question are whether this would put Denmark in a better position at the peacw negotiation later on that they still are occupying Bremen, in OTL the Russians left the Danes to dry.

[imperialaquila]

Sweden shits its pants and falls into the French orbit very quickly.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by imperialaquila

Sweden shits its pants and falls into the French orbit very quickly.

They would likely do that, and ironic it's the most stupid thing to do, while the king are absolut in Denmark, he has to deal with the parliament in England and they would be unlikely to support agressive wars to increase the royal domains where the parliament lack power. But if Sweden are a French ally, suddenly the king can expect the parliament support in wars with Sweden, and France was never above throwing it allies for the wolves even with their weak spot for Sweden.

A interesting effect are the War of Polish Succession in that war Denmark let the French get access to the Baltic against receiving St. Croix. Even through England-Denmark are neutral in that war, they're unlikely to allow this in TTL.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

who are a likely marriage partner for him

I've thought about some possible names. As the Hanoverians were the next Protestant family in the line of succession maybe it would make sense marry William to one of them. So the only choice would be Princess Sophia Dorothea of Hanover, who IOTL was the wife of Frederick William I of Prussia. However, it seems that her Prussian marriage was arranged very soon in her life, I don't how likely would be to have it changed.

If a Danish succession in Britain would make Sweden be worried, maybe they could try to ensure peace by a marriage. A possible option would be Marie Luise of Hesse-Kassel, a sister of king Frederick of Sweden. IOTL she was the wife of John William Friso, Prince of Orange.

This gives other idea, a Dutch option, in order to keep the links between Britain and Netherlands after the death of William III. The prince could be married to one of the sisters of John William Friso, Prince of Orange, as Marie Amalie, Sophia Hedwig or Isabella Charlotte. But apparently they had some problem, as the two sisters who married IOTL were both childless, and the others never married.

A possible neutral option would be Sophie Louise of Mecklenburg, who IOTL was the third wife of Frederick I of Prussia.

[Thande]

Interesting idea. Given Denmark's position in European wars of this period, it seems likely that these dominions (there may still be an Act of Union, as I imagine the Scottish Jacobites wouldn't like the Oldenburgs any more than the Hanoverians) would be less involved in European wars compared to OTL, which has consequences for the rest of the world.

The cultural effects might be significant - OTL Britain and especially her colonies were enriched by immigration from Hanover in this period (see Handel and Herschel for instance) so what would be the effects of Danish artists, natural philosophers and intellectuals coming over instead? Assuming of course the kings hold court in London; Denmark is a tad more significant a continental possession than Hanover. I suppose they could alternate between courts and appoint a viceroy/governor-general type person in the other.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Thande

Interesting idea. Given Denmark's position in European wars of this period, it seems likely that these dominions (there may still be an Act of Union, as I imagine the Scottish Jacobites wouldn't like the Oldenburgs any more than the Hanoverians) would be less involved in European wars compared to OTL, which has consequences for the rest of the world.

I'm not so sure if the Jacobites would have the same strenght as IOTL. After all, this "William IV" would be half Stuart (being the son of Anne) and would be born and raised in Britain, instead of being seen as a German usurper.

Originally Posted by Thande

Assuming of course the kings hold court in London; Denmark is a tad more significant a continental possession than Hanover. I suppose they could alternate between courts and appoint a viceroy/governor-general type person in the other.

I think the main court would still be in London. By the POD William becomes the Danish king only in 1730, that would be almost 15 years after he inherits the British throne (assuming that Anne dies on schedule). So he would probably feel himself much more British than Danish. However, he might have to spend some time in Copenhagen.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

I've thought about some possible names. As the Hanoverians were the next Protestant family in the line of succession maybe it would make sense marry William to one of them. So the only choice would be Princess Sophia Dorothea of Hanover, who IOTL was the wife of Frederick William I of Prussia. However, it seems that her Prussian marriage was arranged very soon in her life, I don't how likely would be to have it changed.

Good suggestion, it wouldn't be bad marriage, while William doesn't need the legitimecy it's still a good marriage, they're not too closely related, it put the ERnglish Oldenburgs in a better position if they're going inheriate Denmark (even before Christian death they're close to the Danish throne). For Hanover a marriage with a Oldenburg aren't bad either especially if Denmark are occupying Bremen-Verden (I expect the marriage to happen somewhere in the periode 1712-1721).

If a Danish succession in Britain would make Sweden be worried, maybe they could try to ensure peace by a marriage. A possible option would be Marie Luise of Hesse-Kassel, a sister of king Frederick of Sweden. IOTL she was the wife of John William Friso, Prince of Orange.

I find it unlikely Denmark and Sweden are going through the Great Northen War, which de facto make the English a semi-hostile power.
This gives other idea, a Dutch option, in order to keep the links between Britain and Netherlands after the death of William III. The prince could be married to one of the sisters of John William Friso, Prince of Orange, as Marie Amalie, Sophia Hedwig or Isabella Charlotte. But apparently they had some problem, as the two sisters who married IOTL were both childless, and the others never married.

A possible neutral option would be Sophie Louise of Mecklenburg, who IOTL was the third wife of Frederick I of Prussia.

Unlikely there are little reason for this marriage, the Mecklenburgians are singular unimportant for the British. It was a poor and depopulated duchy in a unimportant strategic position, with a weak and powerless Prince, while the Danish Oldenburg and Hohenzollern sometimes married them, they had a incentiment as close neighbours.

Originally Posted by Thande

Interesting idea. Given Denmark's position in European wars of this period, it seems likely that these dominions (there may still be an Act of Union, as I imagine the Scottish Jacobites wouldn't like the Oldenburgs any more than the Hanoverians) would be less involved in European wars compared to OTL, which has consequences for the rest of
the world.

Interesting, through I agree with Gonzaga on the Act of Union point. Military I think England are more likely to be the dog and Denmark the tail than vice versa. Denmark are going to be pulled into wars by the English. Through England are going to have enourmous advantage of Denmark as "allied" in those wars rather than Hanover. Denmark are easier to defend, it's richer, military more powerful, more centralise with a weaker nobility and have around 3 times the population of Hanover. This are going to benefit both Prussia and England in the coming wars. Denmark on the other hand will lose it ability to be a neutral power, but its possesions around the world and merchant marine are going to be defended by the English and it may gain some territorial concessions in those wars.

The cultural effects might be significant - OTL Britain and especially her colonies were enriched by immigration from Hanover in this period (see Handel and Herschel for instance) so what would be the effects of Danish artists, natural philosophers and intellectuals coming over instead? Assuming of course the kings hold court in London; Denmark is a tad more significant a continental possession than Hanover. I suppose they could alternate between courts and appoint a viceroy/governor-general type person in the other.

Here are a significant difference, Denmark proper in this periode was primary a immigration country rather than emigration, but on the other hand it has Norway which was primary a emigration country (through mostly to Copenhagen) and Holstein and Oldenburg are almost as big of Hanover, especially if Denmark gain Bremen-Verden from Sweden (quite likely with the better position of the Danish king with a member of his dynasty on the English throne). There also the difference of a much bigger Danish population thanm Hanovean which mean that even if the Danish emigration are only 50% of the Hanovean emigration in precent of the Danish population, it's still 50% more than the Hanovean send. Another significant difference are eductions, there was attempt to establish universal education in 1739, but was dropped thanks to a weak financial position. Here where Denmark does better in the Great Northen War, and are likely to receive pension from England for use of the Danish army. Denmark can quite likely afford it. Which mean a greater educated population to get expertice from, that are mixed with a large and very meritory low nobility give Denmark a quite significant pool to draw experts and intellectuals from.

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

I think the main court would still be in London. By the POD William becomes the Danish king only in 1730, that would be almost 15 years after he inherits the British throne (assuming that Anne dies on schedule). So he would probably feel himself much more British than Danish. However, he might have to spend some time in Copenhagen.

I agree through I'm not sure how often he need to visit Copenhagen, more likely he will make a relative viceroy and send him to Copenhagen, if he's just somewhat competent and doesn't try to weaken the burghers rights, he's going to do fine.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

Good suggestion, it wouldn't be bad marriage, while William doesn't need the legitimecy it's still a good marriage, they're not too closely related, it put the ERnglish Oldenburgs in a better position if they're going inheriate Denmark (even before Christian death they're close to the Danish throne). For Hanover a marriage with a Oldenburg aren't bad either especially if Denmark are occupying Bremen-Verden (I expect the marriage to happen somewhere in the periode 1712-1721).

Hmm, but if you are thinking about a later marriage we would probably need other candidates. By 1712 all those I nominated would be over 25, and princesses generally married very young by then. Also, I assumed that Queen Anne would try to have her son married as soon as possible, exactly in order to secure a clear succession (I was thinking sometime between 1706 and 1712).

BTW, how would be the reaction of the Danish nobility to an absentee monarch? Could they try to gain more power and revert (at least a bit) Absolutism?

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Hmm, but if you are thinking about a later marriage we would probably need other candidates. By 1712 all those I nominated would be over 25, and princesses generally married very young by then. Also, I assumed that Queen Anne would try to have her son married as soon as possible, exactly in order to secure a clear succession (I was thinking sometime between 1706 and 1712).

1706-1712 may be better, the parliament are going to push for a early marriage, Sweden would still be unlikely, and Hanover would be questionable, but honestly beside Hanover, Mecklenburg Hessen and Sweden are there any potential Protestant princesses with high enough prestige to marry the king of England.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

1706-1712 may be better, the parliament are going to push for a early marriage, Sweden would still be unlikely, and Hanover would be questionable, but honestly beside Hanover, Mecklenburg Hessen and Sweden are there any potential Protestant princesses with high enough prestige to marry the king of England.

Well, I don't know how likely would be it, but for a later marriage there are the Orthodox nieces of Peter I of Russia (the daughters of Ivan V): Catherine, Anna and Praskovia. Catherine was married to the Duke of Mecklenburg exactly as an anti-Swedish policy, so a similar logic could be applied here.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Well, I don't know how likely would be it, but for a later marriage there are the Orthodox nieces of Peter I of Russia (the daughters of Ivan V): Catherine, Anna and Praskovia. Catherine was married to the Duke of Mecklenburg exactly as an anti-Swedish policy, so a similar logic could be applied here.

The problem for some minor German prince a marriage with the daughter of the Russian emperor are a major deal, for the greatest Protestant prince it would be a marriage downward (at least in their own eyes). Plus England has little interest with a alliance with Russia, they may be hostile toward Sweden, but they're not interested in being forced into the mess which are the Great Northen War.

[Valdemar II]

Any other ideas?

[Gonzaga]

Just other idea for a marriage that could make things more interesting. What about Ulrika Eleonora, Queen of Sweden? Could it be possible? I assume that such union should be done before the death of Ulrika's eldest sister in 1708, when she had fewer expectations to inherit the throne. Imagine the mess that would be created if Charles XII still dies childless more or less at the same time as IOTL.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Just other idea for a marriage that could make things more interesting. What about Ulrika Eleonora, Queen of Sweden? Could it be possible? I assume that such union should be done before the death of Ulrika's eldest sister in 1708, when she had fewer expectations to inherit the throne. Imagine the mess that would be created if Charles XII still dies childless more or less at the same time as IOTL.

The marriage make sense from Swedens side, it would bind the English Oldenburgs closer to Sweden, which are a benefit when they're so closely related to the Danish. Of course the mess are going to hit when Christian dies. Suddenly we have a king of England, Scotland, Ireland and Sweden whom are also heir to the Danish throne, that sound like the recipe for a Succession. We will likely see a French, Prussian and Russian alliance versus a English-Austrian-Danish-Swedish alliance. The problem are that the English claim are the simply the best, the main potential pretenders would be the Wettins (through in that case Prussian would join the Oldenburgs, and their Catholism would mean that the Danes would really fight to avoid them) and Gottorps (but they more less live on the Danes and Swedes mercy, their loss would at very least mean the last of their possesion was annexed) some of the Sönderburgs or the Gyldenløves (Danish royal bastards)* could also be pretenders.

*the Danneskiold-Samsøe was the most prestigeous bastard branch, but they was embarrassing loyal.

[Velasco]

His half-aunt, Louisa Maria Teresa Stuart, would be an interesting choice. She could be sent over to England to be raised as Protestant and would furthermore stand to inherit the throne in case William died childless (remembe James Francis Edward was considered a changeling and was also Catholic).

Other than her, his first cousins (on the Danish side) would be good choices. Sophia Hedwig of Denmark (daughter of King Christian V) pr Charlotte Amalia (daughter of King Frederick IV) would be the first choices, considering he would be raised in England and thus not be very Danish in his outlook, so a Danish princess would be a great boon to his claim/standing/popularity and help dispell any rival claimants, including any guys who might marry those ladies and try to claim the throne jure uxoris. Ulrika Eleonora of Sweden or Sophia Amalia or Marie Elisabeth of Holstein-Gottorp would be good choices and sensible alliances considering his status as heir to Denmark. A bit farther fetched, Anna Romanova (daughter of Tsar Peter I) or Natalya Alexevna (sister of Tsar Peter I) might also be of interest, if they gave up Orthodoxy.

Most interesting thing would be religion...Head of the Church in England, how would he take to Swedish Lutheranism?

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Velasco

His half-aunt, Louisa Maria Teresa Stuart, would be an interesting choice. She could be sent over to England to be raised as Protestant and would furthermore stand to inherit the throne in case William died childless (remembe James Francis Edward was considered a changeling and was also Catholic).

Other than her, his first cousins (on the Danish side) would be good choices. Sophia Hedwig of Denmark (daughter of King Christian V) pr Charlotte Amalia (daughter of King Frederick IV) would be the first choices, considering he would be raised in England and thus not be very Danish in his outlook, so a Danish princess would be a great boon to his claim/standing/popularity and help dispell any rival claimants, including any guys who might marry those ladies and try to claim the throne jure uxoris. Ulrika Eleonora of Sweden or Sophia Amalia or Marie Elisabeth of Holstein-Gottorp would be good choices and sensible alliances considering his status as heir to Denmark. A bit farther fetched, Anna Romanova (daughter of Tsar Peter I) or Natalya Alexevna (sister of Tsar Peter I) might also be of interest, if they gave up Orthodoxy.

Most interesting thing would be religion...Head of the Church in England, how would he take to Swedish Lutheranism?

Interesting choices of heirs, I hadn't thought of the unmarried Danish princess, of course that make primary sense if he marry late.

For Lutheranism, as long as he respect the dominant/absolut position of Lutheranism in Denmark and Sweden, they won't care. England has already shown that they could respect the rights of Presbyterianism in Scotland, so they won't make a big deal out of it. If he had been Catholic it would have been a problem, but it wasn't usual a problem that the Prince had another faith as long as he wasn't Catholic.

[othyrsyde]

Sounds cool overall. Wish I could add some more to the discussion, but I only know the basics of European royal families and such (and that's shaky to begin with). Like the cultural differences that would have arised, that Thande pointed out.

[Gonzaga]

Originally Posted by Valdemar II

The marriage make sense from Swedens side, it would bind the English Oldenburgs closer to Sweden, which are a benefit when they're so closely related to the Danish. Of course the mess are going to hit when Christian dies. Suddenly we have a king of England, Scotland, Ireland and Sweden whom are also heir to the Danish throne, that sound like the recipe for a Succession. We will likely see a French, Prussian and Russian alliance versus a English-Austrian-Danish-Swedish alliance. The problem are that the English claim are the simply the best, the main potential pretenders would be the Wettins (through in that case Prussian would join the Oldenburgs, and their Catholism would mean that the Danes would really fight to avoid them) and Gottorps (but they more less live on the Danes and Swedes mercy, their loss would at very least mean the last of their possesion was annexed) some of the Sönderburgs or the Gyldenløves (Danish royal bastards)* could also be pretenders.

*the Danneskiold-Samsøe was the most prestigeous bastard branch, but they was embarrassing loyal.

Hmm, but wouldn't the marriage of Ulrika to William actually increase the chances of Charles Frederick of Holstein-Gottorp to become the Swedish king? I mean, assuming that she marries before her sister's death (let's say by 1707) when Charles XII finally dies she would be living more than a decade far from Sweden, while Charles was living in Stockholm. If this happens we could actually see an increased hostility between Denmark and Sweden when William becomes the Danish king.

[Velasco]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Hmm, but wouldn't the marriage of Ulrika to William actually increase the chances of Charles Frederick of Holstein-Gottorp to become the Swedish king? I mean, assuming that she marries before her sister's death (let's say by 1707) when Charles XII finally dies she would be living more than a decade far from Sweden, while Charles was living in Stockholm. If this happens we could actually see an increased hostility between Denmark and Sweden when William becomes the Danish king.

One of two things could happen:

1) Charles XII picks a younger son of Ulrika's (if she has more than one) or if she has only one son, her eldest daughter. Hell, he could even marry (only in name) his niece, making her Queen of Sweden jointly with him and facilitating her succession (maybe even arranging her next marriage for her in his will or something).

2) Ulrika becomes Queen of Sweden and has to fight off Charles Frederick, or Charles Frederick becomes King and has to fight off Ulrika. Cue several years of devastating warfare.

[Valdemar II]

Originally Posted by Gonzaga

Hmm, but wouldn't the marriage of Ulrika to William actually increase the chances of Charles Frederick of Holstein-Gottorp to become the Swedish king? I mean, assuming that she marries before her sister's death (let's say by 1707) when Charles XII finally dies she would be living more than a decade far from Sweden, while Charles was living in Stockholm. If this happens we could actually see an increased hostility between Denmark and Sweden when William becomes the Danish king.

Yes good point, it depend on the Great Northen War, Russia protected the Gottorps at the end of the war (to keep Denmark weak*), something they would not do if Charles Frederick became king of Sweden. But that's in future, Sweden could crown Ulrika to make the English join the Swedish side (something they did last in the war anyway), while crowning Charles Frederick would give the Swedes nothing, his duchy was occupied, he had no close dynastic relationship to any other house than the Swedish Wittelsbachs and the Oldenburgs. The best argument for electing Charles Frederick are that they can do so from a postion of strength and remove absolutism, while Ulrika are in a much better posittion to insist on continuing absolutism. I would lean on them electing Ulrika just because it will at least make the English leave the anti-Swedish alliance.

What will follow are likely peace with Denmark (likely much as in OTL, Denmark may gain a little more, but not much**). The war more or less end as in OTL because England will likely not put much into the conflict.

With Christians (at latest 1722) death everything changes, suddenly a North European state almost as big as France (in population) are looking likely. Here Charles Frederick of Gottorp are again the best pretender, descendant of Frederik III on both his paternal and maternal side he has a good claim to Denmark and on his mothers side he have the better claim to the Swedish throne. So Russia likely push him forward. While everyone hope that Frederik of Denmark succed in producing a new heir.

By 1730 When Frederik dies, well everything goes to hell.

*Russia had no wish for Denmark becoming stronger than Sweden and gain full control over the access to the Baltic.

**With a Swedish-English dynastic union I could see Russia support Danish annexing Gottorp-Holstein, but even that I would say was at most 50/50 chance.