A MUCH Larger Mongol Empire

Rex Romanum

Banned
Imagine a world where the Mongols get more luck than in OTL...they successfully conquered Japan, Srivijaya, India, Egypt, Byzantine Empire, Holy Roman Empire, France, etc...
But they still be divided into khanates, just like in OTL...my questions:
-how the Empire would be divided?
-how long the Mongols would be able to hold their khanates?
-what would be the implications to the future?

The map below is my predictions...
green: Yuan Dynasty
gray: Chagatai Khanate
yellow: Golden Horde
blue: Ilkhanate

mongol.PNG
 

Yorel

I'd say the Empire you envision for the Golden Horde seems too big to me... The Western European nations were very strong : they would suffer heavily from a mongol invasion, but the mongols would meet fierce resistance.

At best, I could see the Mongols getting greater chunks of Poland and Hungary than what they did OTL but not more.
 

RGB

Yorel said:
I'd say the Empire you envision for the Golden Horde seems too big to me... The Western European nations were very strong : they would suffer heavily from a mongol invasion, but the mongols would meet fierce resistance.
Click to expand...

The Europeans would keep losing battles, but the Mongols would not be able to maintain control for long. For one, they would get bogged down in castles. Fortification lines worked well for the Hungarians vs. Nogai, for example, so no reason why, when the Mongols withdraw to the Alfold, Besarabia or Ukraine, the Western Lords would not grow rebellious.

Every punitive expedition would have to do that work all over again. It didn't even work against Russia that was far more vulnerable, in the long run...and conquering the Song required hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers, something the West simply does not have.

So the Mongol Empire cannot keep those western lands for long, even if they do initally beat them and even sieze them.
 

MerryPrankster

What happens when Mongols meet longbows?

An arrowstorm strikes me as something that could cause them problems, although the Mongols might be able to adapt.
 

Rebel

Banned
MerryPrankster said:
What happens when Mongols meet longbows?

An arrowstorm strikes me as something that could cause them problems, although the Mongols might be able to adapt.
Click to expand...

Well, they would likely simply outflank the English if they tried to force them to attack their bowmen directly. And the Mongols were quite good at seige warfare, so they could (After a fashion) take some cities and castles, sack them, and then convince the rest to surrender in exchange for no torture and slaughter. Basically their standard policy.
 

RGB

MerryPrankster said:
What happens when Mongols meet longbows?

An arrowstorm strikes me as something that could cause them problems, although the Mongols might be able to adapt.
Click to expand...

Okay.

They meet the longbows. They realise they hurt.

So they get out the heavy bows and stay at long range, exchanging missiles once in a while. The English cannot move from their perfect defensive position, the Mongols are free to forage. The English archers will also run through arrows and stamina pretty quick with sustained shooting, if they insist on it.

So the English commander has the following options:

Try to force his men into effective archery range, compromising good positioning, shooting window, and wasting effort...try to maneouvre away...or stay put until the army starves. Any of those scenarios end up the same as any engagement of Mongols vs. Europeans.

Besides, the yeoman-heavy army is a later development than the Mongols under Batu.
 

Quantum Imperator

Surely in order to prevent rebellions in Europe the Mongols could just depopulate the area? IIRC, Genghis actually considered doing so to Northern China.
 

Typo

Banned
MerryPrankster said:
What happens when Mongols meet longbows?

An arrowstorm strikes me as something that could cause them problems, although the Mongols might be able to adapt.
Click to expand...
The longbow was not some sort of super-weapon which destroys all enemies, while capable of defeating tactically disorganized French, the Mongols would have simply adapted.

Or alternatively, the Mongols ally themselves with some faction who is willing to fight the English for them.
 

Faeelin

Banned
RGB said:
Okay.

They meet the longbows. They realise they hurt.

So they get out the heavy bows and stay at long range, exchanging missiles once in a while. The English cannot move from their perfect defensive position, the Mongols are free to forage. .
Click to expand...

What are Mongolian horses eating, exactly?
 
Tobit

Tobit

The Mongols couldn't conquer South east asia, it is too jungley and the inhabitants were very keen at taking tactical advantage of that. I don't know, but I would imagine that Southern India, Bengal, and Burma would be the same way.
 

RGB

Faeelin said:
What are Mongolian horses eating, exactly?
Click to expand...

Grass. Plentiful in France, which is not that awfully different from Silesia.

EDIT: I'm not being flippant here. The Mongol army was strongest on the plains, yes. But they fought succesfully in Iraq (swamp and desert!), Zalesye (swamp and forest, in winter), Silesia (forests and mountains!), Tibet (very cold mountains with snow on them), Caucasus and Sichuan. They could certainly sustain themselves for a season's worth of fighting if they needed to, outside their core areas. They could not keep this up for years, I will easily agree, but I hope we're not seriously discussing western Europe as if it was Song China that would need years and years and hundreds of thousands of troops.

Besides, if the Hundred Years' War taught anyone anything, it's that a fearsome enough field army could chevauchee its way around for decades.
 
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Rex Romanum

Banned
Max Sinister said:
Putting India, Tibet and parts of Central Asia into one khanate might be difficult. Better draw the borders different.
Click to expand...

Well, actually that was one of my questions: can someone make a better map, please...?

RGB said:
The Europeans would keep losing battles, but the Mongols would not be able to maintain control for long. For one, they would get bogged down in castles. Fortification lines worked well for the Hungarians vs. Nogai, for example, so no reason why, when the Mongols withdraw to the Alfold, Besarabia or Ukraine, the Western Lords would not grow rebellious.

Every punitive expedition would have to do that work all over again. It didn't even work against Russia that was far more vulnerable, in the long run...and conquering the Song required hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers, something the West simply does not have.

So the Mongol Empire cannot keep those western lands for long, even if they do initally beat them and even sieze them.
Click to expand...

I have a crazy idea...if in OTL Kublai Khan claimed the title Chinese Emperor to make China easier to control, why not in ATL Batu Khan claimed the title of Holy Roman Emperor while Hulegu Khan claimed the title of Muslim Caliphate to make Europe and Middle East easier to govern, respectively...?
 

Malta

Rex Romanum said:
I have a crazy idea...if in OTL Kublai Khan claimed the title Chinese Emperor to make China easier to control, why not in ATL Batu Khan claimed the title of Holy Roman Emperor while Hulegu Khan claimed the title of Muslim Caliphate to make Europe and Middle East easier to govern, respectively...?
Click to expand...

How well did that help the Yuan stay in style?
 

Solomaxwell6

Banned
Tomb said:
How well did that help the Yuan stay in style?
Click to expand...

Exactly. Claiming some sort of title doesn't mean anything if the population doesn't follow it. Is the HRE Khan going to be Christian? If the Caliphate Khan going to be Muslim? If they're not, expect no local support. Even if they decide to convert, the local people are going to resent the rule.
 

Faeelin

Banned
RGB said:
Grass. Plentiful in France, which is not that awfully different from Silesia.
Click to expand...

Where the Mongols were only present for a fairly brief period of time, no?

I don't mean to be flippant. But let's look at the aftermath of Mohacs. We can assume that all of Hungary fell before the Tatar, ripe for trampling beneath its army, no? Yet numerous cities, castles, etc. were still holding out.

And of course only forty years later, Nogai Khan's wars with Hungary would prove the Hungarians can give as good as they got.

(swamp and forest, in winter), Silesia (forests and mountains!), Tibet (very cold mountains with snow on them), Caucasus and Sichuan.They could not keep this up for years, I will easily agree, but I hope we're not seriously discussing western Europe as if it was Song China that would need years and years and hundreds of thousands of troops.
Click to expand...

Why not? As you note, France and England fought for a hundred years.
 
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